Blown call and lack of sportsmanship
- Thread starter GideonF
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They didn't notice the 7 move (ing).
Obvious foul. Awful call.
I'm as big on sportsmanship as anyone, but can it really be overridden? If the ref makes a bad call against me, can I argue to get it changed?
I don't know the full situation here, but i can see a case that if he can and has been screwed by bad ref calls then he can get one in his favor. That's what refs are for--to make calls.
I do the same thing in league. When someone gets called to watch a hit, it's an absolute coin flip whether or not they make the right call. I've had many erroneously go against me. So therefore if someone makes a bad call in my favor I also accept it. That's the established rules of the game.
If I'm calling it, I'm as honest and accurate as possible.
I'm as big on sportsmanship as anyone, but can it really be overridden? If the ref makes a bad call against me, can I argue to get it changed?
I don't know the full situation here, but i can see a case that if he can and has been screwed by bad ref calls then he can get one in his favor. That's what refs are for--to make calls.
I do the same thing in league. When someone gets called to watch a hit, it's an absolute coin flip whether or not they make the right call. I've had many erroneously go against me. So therefore if someone makes a bad call in my favor I also accept it. That's the established rules of the game.
If I'm calling it, I'm as honest and accurate as possible.
I saw one where a player correctly asked someone to watch a hit before a shot and asked a trustworthy player to watch it. The chosen ref blew the call and the requesting player argued it with the opponent not the impromptu ref and got their way. Granted the call was mistaken, but when you ask someone to watch a hit and they make a bad call, you have to live with it without complaint IMO.
There have been a bunch of bad ref calls we’ve posted about on here. Any group using refs needs to have a rule about what can be done in a bad call situation. Like a simple rule about allowing video review if available and a rule about whether a player can override a bad call by going to the opponent- those type of things.
Yeah, it’s a hard question of what a player’s obligation is when there is a ref. You have a ref to avoid disputes but expecting/ allowing players to override a call can create more disputes. It can also hurt a player’s reputation if people expect the player to override a bad call. Most times it’s closer than this one, but it is still possible the player didn’t notice the foul. It also shows up the ref. A good ref won’t blow as many calls but might still wonder why he should bother when the players just overrule the call anyway
There was the recent UPL situation with Tyler Steyer and he took a deliberate to give up bih after a bad call. People applauded it, but the ref who blew the call also failed to call him for the loss of game foul under the ( horrible IMO) UPL rules. So it became a no win for everyone.
There will never be a centralized officiating office for pool. Thank goodness. But look how hard it is for the NFL with all the cameras and money to get it right. They have spent years tinkering with replay rules and such and it is a work in progress. Not easy.
There may be difficult situations, but this isn’t one of them IMO. If he’d cleared the balls and then hits one of the 6 or the 8 in close proximity and the referee calls it good when it’s debatable, I can understand not saying anything.
The ref just completely missed the fact that the CB hit the 7. It’s like calling a ref to see if you get a rail and you move a ball (all ball fouls) with your back hand. I don’t think you’re off the hook because the ref didn’t see that. At the very least the player could have answered “the CB hit the 7” when asked and if the referee refuses to call it, at least he’s been honest.
In snooker, they call fouls on themselves all the time, including when the ref is right there and misses it. I’ve seen in it pro matches where the player double hits the CB and tells the ref. Or they touch the CB on a practice stroke. Or they touch a ball with their arm or something. IMO if the rules in pool don’t allow it they need to change the rules. Looking at the rules, though, the DO permit the althlete ask the referee to reconsider. It presumably applies to BOTH players, so the shooter here could say “CB hit the 7” and then the referee makes the correction (or not, I suppose).
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why would you admit to a ruling being wrong that the ref made in your favor. how would you know that your opponent would do it for you.
unless the rules say you must point out your own fouls then its not up to you to do it. your opponent or ref. has that job.
you never admit to a cop you were doing something illegal would you.
if gambling its just you and him so it is unwritten rule to point out fouls or moved balls to him.
but in a tournament its dog eats dog.
unless the rules say you must point out your own fouls then its not up to you to do it. your opponent or ref. has that job.
you never admit to a cop you were doing something illegal would you.
if gambling its just you and him so it is unwritten rule to point out fouls or moved balls to him.
but in a tournament its dog eats dog.
Yes, I agree. That's what I'm getting at. If I override a ruling that went in my favor then I am putting myself at a disadvantage against players who either wouldn't do that (through poor sportsmanship) or couldn't do that (through ignorance of the rules or how to interpret what transpired). I am bound by the rule but not protected by the rule, while my opponent is protected but not necessarily bound.
I think most people are good sports, or at least try to be, and self-policing works pretty well. But as soon as a third party is present and if we agree that person makes the call, then in order for the playing field to remain even I go by that call.
Actually, I don’t think it is clear the cue ball hit the 7. To me it looked like the cue hit the 7. It was an obvious foul to me, but it still isn’t perfectly clear what the foul was. Watch some more and tell me which you think moved the 7. I think that may explain how it could be missed - watching the cueball could take the eye away from the foul. Not sure. Maybe. I agree though that the ref should have done better.
Double hits and cue ball fouls I think are different and I do think players should call them on themselves. But I can see Maha’s point about when refs are there and supposed to make the calls.
Some people have a strong moral compass and live by a strong code of ethics. Personal integrity is very important to them.
To some other people, those things are less important.
and i see these people on tv with their moral compass getting arrested regularly.
one persons code of ethics may be very different to another's.
mine is i always follow through with what i promise. my word is my bond. not what to protect of another's choices.
or to look out for their monetary interests.
one persons code of ethics may be very different to another's.
mine is i always follow through with what i promise. my word is my bond. not what to protect of another's choices.
or to look out for their monetary interests.
Exactly my point.
I went back and looked at it again and I’m sure it’s the CB and not the cue that causes the foul. But either way the ref’s first job is to make sure the 7 isn’t disturbed. I could understand missing the call if the CB clearly cleared the 7 and then when it’s hitting the 6 the shooter gets up and his cue his the 7 - the ref is at that point concentrating on the hit on the 6.
On the question of whether the shooter should say something, I can understand a situation like Yapp in the World 8b finals where he’s shooting the 8 and the referee judges it hits the 8 first. Here, there is no judgement - the ref doesn’t see the 7b move a foot. I don’t think that’s something the shooter should ignore.
I don’t think it was the stick, but either way it’s all ball fouls.
By the way, the BCA PL (CSI) rules specifically have a rule on this. Their CB fouls only rule says that any movement of an intervening ball on a jump or masse is a foul - whether by the CB, cue or shooter. A very good rule to avoid an argument in precisely this situation.
I watched some more at .5 speed and I think it was the cue ball after all. In any event the 7 moved a foot as nobody except the ref and perhaps shooter missed.