What's Good About A Good Stroke?

nobcitypool said:
swest, unless some external force is acting upon the mechanism, gravity alone will not allow it to continuously stay in motion.
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I mentioned that it has a 'helper'.

The classic grandfather clock (at least the one we had when I was a kid) has a weight on a chain that must be periodically reset, i.e., raised to its highest point, so that its slow descent - due to gravity - can power the pendulum. So the pendulum itself provides the accurate periodic motion, gravity driven, while the helper mechanism drives the pendulum to overcome friction and to move the hands... but, again, that helper can be gravity driven (or it can be a spring, or other stored-energy device).
 
nobcitypool said:
English, the pendulum stroke ignores the rest of the body because at the time the stroke occurs, the rest of the body shouldn't be moving. Which part of that are you struggling to comprehend? The only exception is the wrist/hand but that could stimulate an entire other argument/debate.

I don't understand the fixation on gravity. Pendulum refers to a movement. The pendulum movement often associated with a grandfather clock certainly isn't gravity driven.

If you can't accept how adding another moving part to a motion complicates things and makes it more complex, there is no reason to have or continue this conversation. Either you "get that" or you don't.
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Nob,

If you read back, you will see that 'gravity' is not even involved in my opinion of the stroke itself.

If it is all about less moving parts then let's take the wrist out of it & the elbow as well & only deliver the cue from the shoulder.

I have stated that if one can not perform the 'piston like J-stroke' effectively & efficiently then the 'still elbow stroke' might be a good subtitute.

The 'discussion style' of putting words into other's mouth, twisting words & conclusions seems very similar to some other pendulum advocates & makes me wonder as to multiple identites.

This puppy was all but put to sleep per Dr. Dave's fair comparison, even though I do not totally agree with 100% of it. I was & am willing to let it rest, but any inference to non complete conformity seem to bring an onslought of dispersions.

If it so good it will survive as well as those that teach it. I obviously am not a proponent of its' finish. All of you can incorrectly continue to imply that my oposition is based on not understanding it. I DO UNDERSTAND IT. I have invited Mr. Lee to do a comparison of both but he has not yet responded, but Dr. Dave did & I'm okay, but not a proponent except as a last resort. I very seriously doubt that that is going to change.

My refusal to simply bow down & conform to it has made me a piriah to those that are monetarily linked to it. Those not monetarily linked to it will simply speak their kind opinion of it & then let it go.

I think it is very poor stategy for the proponents to continually put the disagreement in the spot light.

But... different strokes for different folks.

Have a nice evening,:smile:
 
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In a vacuum, with a frictionless bearing, and no clock mechanism to drive, a pendulum will oscillate forever.

Of course complete vacuum and frictionless bearings don't exist.
 
I grew up thinking that the piston stroke was required for accuracy and action (spin).

Once I found out that it is only the direction of the cue, and the contact point of the tip with the cue ball at the moment of impact that makes any difference, I gave up my struggle to drive the cue stick straight (like down a tube). My own play improved almost immediately.

Recently, I was relieved of another useless delusion, and that is that an accelerating stroke with follow-through extends the contact time of the tip with the cue ball, thus increasing action. Not so.

So, another complication has been shaken off. I am heading for simplicity.
 
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ENGLISH! said:
Nob,

If you read back, you will see that 'gravity' is not even involved in my opinion of the stroke itself.

If it is all about less moving parts then let's take the wrist out of it & the elbow as well & only deliver the cue from the shoulder.

I have stated that if one can not perform the 'piston like J-stroke' effectively & efficiently then the 'still elbow stroke' might be a good subtitute.

The 'discussion style' of putting words into other's mouth, twisting words & conclusions seems very similar to some other pendulum advocates & makes me wonder as to multiple identites.

This puppy was all but put to sleep per Dr. Dave's fair comparison, even though I do not totally agree with 100% of it. I was & am willing to let it rest, but any inference to non complete conformity seem to bring an onslought of dispersions.

If it so good it will survive as well as those that teach it. I obviously am not a proponent of its finish. All of you can incorrectly continue to imply that my oposition is based on not understanding it. I DO UNDERSTAND IT. I have invited Mr. Lee to do a comparison of both but he has not yet responded, but Dr. Dave did & I'm okay but not a proponent except as a last resort. I very seriously doubt that that is going to change.

My refusal to simply bow down & conform to it has made me a piriah to those that are monetarily linked to it. Those not monetarily linked to it will simply speak their kind opinion of it & then let it go.

I think it is very poor stategy for the proponents to continually put the disagreement in the spot light.

But... different strokes for different folks.

Have a nice evening,:smile:
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You are so full of it! Just who are you trying to fool here? You DARE say that the "monetarily linked propents" continually put it in the spotlight, when anyone can easily see that I have 9 posts, (now 10) and Scott has 6 posts in this entire thread, yet YOU have 35! Seems to me that Scott and I, which as far as I can tell are the only monetarily linked proponents in this thread, have let it go. Yet, many others have more posts than we do, with you at the top of the heap of "not letting it go".

When all of your arguments have been shown by others to be petty, trivial, and even non-existent in reality, then you now are for re-naming it! Just astounding! But, the more you post, the more people become aware of what you are really trying to accomplish with all your posting on the subject. Same thing I stated earlier. You aren't here to learn anything, just try and cause divisiveness in the forums. You have stated so yourself several times. Time for the rest of the people to see you for what you really are on here.

There's nothing wrong at all with questioning things taught on here. You, however, take it to an extreme, and it is only against those you "don't like". Ridiculous. It's like you are out on some kind of war on here. Frankly, others just don't care about what YOU want. And no one but you and Fran and CJ are going to bother trying to rename things that have had the same terminology for decades. That you three aren't willing to learn the terminology, or understand it, is on you guys, no one else.
 
ENGLISH! said:
Nob,

If you read back, you will see that 'gravity' is not even involved in my opinion of the stroke itself.

If it is all about less moving parts then let's take the wrist out of it & the elbow as well & only deliver the cue from the shoulder.

Please tell me you didn't just say that. Something has to move dude. You're now going to argue for delivering the cue with one motion, that coming from a ball and socket joint?


I have stated that if one can not perform the 'piston like J-stroke' effectively & efficiently then the 'still elbow stroke' might be a good subtitute.

The 'discussion style' of putting words into other's mouth, twisting words & conclusions seems very similar to some other pendulum advocates & makes me wonder as to multiple identites.

This puppy was all but put to sleep per Dr. Dave's fair comparison, even though I do not totally agree with 100% of it. I was & am willing to let it rest, but any inference to non complete conformity seem to bring an onslought of dispersions.

If it so good it will survive as well as those that teach it. I obviously am not a proponent of its finish. All of you can incorrectly continue to imply that my oposition is based on not understanding it. I DO UNDERSTAND IT. I have invited Mr. Lee to do a comparison of both but he has not yet responded, but Dr. Dave did & I'm okay but not a proponent except as a last resort. I very seriously doubt that that is going to change.

My refusal to simply bow down & conform to it has made me a piriah to those that are monetarily linked to it. Those not monetarily linked to it will simply speak their kind opinion of it & then let it go.

You hold yourself in way too high esteem. I'm fairly certain that aside from some entertaining debate, nobody that matters gives a shit what you think about the pool stroke.

I think it is very poor stategy for the proponents to continually put the disagreement in the spot light.

But... different strokes for different folks.

Have a nice evening,:smile:
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You can now have the last word, I'm hoping I'm disciplined enough to quit wasting my time discussing this with you.
 
Careful, Neil. The special of the day in Cafe LaBrea TarPit is a heaping-mounded plate of OCD -- no matter what you order -- and you might have to send it back a few times.

;)
-Sean
 
swest said:
I mentioned that it has a 'helper'.

The classic grandfather clock (at least the one we had when I was a kid) has a weight on a chain that must be periodically reset, i.e., raised to its highest point, so that its slow descent - due to gravity - can power the pendulum. So the pendulum itself provides the accurate periodic motion, gravity driven, while the helper mechanism drives the pendulum to overcome friction and to move the hands... but, again, that helper can be gravity driven (or it can be a spring, or other stored-energy device).
Click to expand...

I understand but you also "mentioned" it was gravity driven. It is only partially gravity driven unless someone has figured out how to eliminate friction and created the first perpetual motion machine.
 
sfleinen said:
Careful, Neil. The special of the day in Cafe LaBrea TarPit is a heaping-mounded plate of OCD -- no matter what you order -- and you might have to send it back a few times.

;)
-Sean
Click to expand...

Nah, I'm not wasting my time responding to him again. If he wants to report me, (even though I'm supposedly on his ignore), let him. Then it's up to the mods what they want to do about it, if anything. I'm just glad that others are finally seeing him for what he is.
 
ENGLISH! said:
Sean,

Am I the waiter?

If so...actually, many, many moons ago, when I was laid off from my 15 years as an Investigative Auditor for two(2) multi-million dollar International Maritime Associations, I did work as a waiter @ Brennan's Restaurant for about 2 months, between positions. It was probably the most enjoyable short term 'job' I have ever had, as it was all about an enjoyable experience for all involved.

Just thought you might want to know a good waiter's motivation is to make the experience enjoyable for all involved, so as to get that big tip. He also wants to make sure he understands the order being placed.

I only worked as a waiter for 2 months so I quess I've lost that serving mentality long ago. But.. I did notice that all legitimate types of paper money have two(2) sides. If not the money won't spend. All coins have two(2) side as well.

Funny thing, if six people take one(1) sided money to the bank they can not exchange it no mater how loud they demand that it is legitimate... at least not until the exchange person confirms that it is a new type of currency being printed & that it is legitimate even if the exchange rate may not be one to one.

If I were you, I'd go to a Casino because that was a lucky guess that I was once a waiter, even if for only 2 months @ a World Renoun Restaurant.

Best Wishes to ya',
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<KA-BOOOOOMMM!!> I think posts 234 and 235 broke the sound barrier "overhead"...

-Sean <-- just call me Kelly Johnson, architect and engineer of the highest-flying and fastest planes ever made...
 
nobcitypool said:
I understand but you also "mentioned" it was gravity driven. It is only partially gravity driven unless someone has figured out how to eliminate friction and created the first perpetual motion machine.
Click to expand...

Well, right, but it is gravity driven until, eventually, someone has to intervene to add more stored energy (by raising the weight). I wasn't trying to suggest it was a perpetual motion machine.

I thought your original post made it sound like 'pendulum motion' isn't a gravity-driven phenomenon, when it is. That's all I was responding to.

Cheers.
 
I don't believe normal wrist motion converts the pendulum arc to a straight line.

pj
chgo
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Slasher:
Not the wrist, the grip allows the cue to articulate by opening the back fingers.
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OK, but that just allows the cue to move in its pendulum arc without interference from the hand. I believe the only way to convert the forearm's pendulum motion to a straight line is to move the elbow up and down - i.e., the "piston" stroke.

pj <- sometimes known as the "broken elbow" stroke :)
chgo
 
swest said:
I grew up thinking that the piston stroke was required for accuracy and action (spin).

Once I found out that it is only the direction of the cue, and the contact point of the tip with the cue ball at the moment of impact that makes any difference, I gave up my struggle to drive the cue stick straight (like down a tube). My own play improved almost immediately.

Recently, I was relieved of another useless delusion, and that is that an accelerating stroke with follow-through extends the contact time of the tip with the cue ball, thus increasing action. Not so.

So, another complication has been shaken off. I am heading for simplicity.
Click to expand...
It's great to hear that somebody actually uses some of the information shared here. For what it's worth, I think simplicity is the fast track.

pj <- simple
chgo
 
in tennis, golf, and pool the wrist must be able to work up and down

Slasher said:
Not the wrist, the grip allows the cue to articulate by opening the back fingers.
Click to expand...

Remember, in tennis, golf, and pool the wrist must be able to work up and down to generate power. This is often misunderstood, and leads to an unnecessary emphasis placed on the arm to generate stroke speed.
 
cjssecrets4u2 said:
Remember, in tennis, golf, and pool the wrist must be able to work up and down to generate power. This is often misunderstood, and leads to an unnecessary emphasis placed on the arm to generate stroke speed.
Click to expand...

I dont believe the wrist is capable of adding cue speed, it does not have much travel along that axis. Relaxing the wrist will release tension in the arm allowing more speed an also preventing the cue being pulled off line hence more accurate striking of the CB, but I doubt the actual wrist action is contributing.
 
cjssecrets4u2 said:
Remember, in tennis, golf, and pool the wrist must be able to work up and down to generate power. This is often misunderstood, and leads to an unnecessary emphasis placed on the arm to generate stroke speed.
Click to expand...
Tennis racquets and golf clubs don't work with the wrist like pool cues do. In those other sports the racquet and club (like the bat in baseball) are "long lever" extensions of the arms that pivot at the wrist to move in much larger, faster arcs than the arm can move, greatly magnifying speed and power. A pool cue isn't an extension of the forearm's length; the only added length is the 3 or 4 inches between the wrist's joint and the cue itself - therefore the power that can be added by the wrist is small.

I think the benefit of the wrist joint is more about finer speed control than about added power.

EDIT: I see Slasher says the same thing (just above).

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
OK, but that just allows the cue to move in its pendulum arc without interference from the hand. I believe the only way to convert the forearm's pendulum motion to a straight line is to move the elbow up and down - i.e., the "piston" stroke.

pj <- sometimes known as the "broken elbow" stroke :)
chgo
Click to expand...

Then explain Judd's stroke. Isn't video good enough for you anymore??
 
The wrist is the mutiplyer of power in golf & baseball. Take the wrist out & you lose distance.

However, Mr. Slasher, you seem to have a very good grasp of 'What's Good About A Good Stroke?'

You may be targeted soon.:wink:
 
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