What's Good About A Good Stroke?

[genomachino]

When the right amount of the stroke is......

When the right amount of the stroke is after the ball contact.

On each and every shot there is a more correct amount of stoke that is after contact with the cue ball.

If the stroke is started to far back it is done almost before we hit the ball.

The balance here is the secret..........

 

[Slasher]

Please understand that if what someone is doing, is working just fine for them, it is not "wrong". Different styles for different folks. But, if what they are doing, is NOT working too well for them.......then it's time to start looking at the basics.

There was a reason for the " "

The one thing he had down was his grip, it allowed the free flow of the cue.

 

[Slasher]

When the right amount of the stroke is after the ball contact.

On each and every shot there is a more correct amount of stoke that is after contact with the cue ball.

If the stroke is started to far back it is done almost before we hit the ball.

The balance here is the secret..........

Anyone wanna take a stab at this, I ran it through googletranslate.com but it crashed

 

[sfleinen]

Sean,

I appologize.

Apparently, I misinterpreted your statement.

I related, your, 'only in severe cases' to my, 'last resort'. I did mean to attempt to put words in your mouth.

Please accept my apology.

Sincerely,

Rick:

Apology (for misunderstanding / word-insertion) graciously accepted. We can agree to disagree. But please understand, there comes a point during an impasse, when one has to raise his arms, palms facing outwards, and gently and carefully walk backwards, away. That time had come for me.

Thank you,
-Sean

 

[ENGLISH!]

Rick:

Apology (for misunderstanding / word-insertion) graciously accepted. We can agree to disagree. But please understand, there comes a point during an impasse, when one has to raise his arms, palms facing outwards, and gently and carefully walk backwards, away. That time had come for me.

Thank you,
-Sean

Sean,

Thanks for the apology acceptance, even with the word 'not', not there. I corrected the problem, whatever caused it, which was probably me hitting some 'wrong' keys.

I totally understand. I thought all was going to be well. But...

Thanks again,

 

[Hector3cushion]

Even the apologies create arguments. Man!

 

[dr_dave]

[concerning pendulum stroke with not elbow drop:]Please explain it & the benefits compared to the 'piston' J-Stroke, other than it being more simple to teach & diagnose.

Why is it better, quality wise? I am open minded about it...

Rick,

I don't want to get into another conversation about this again, because I think it has already been beaten to death several times, but here's my summary of why a pendulum stroke (with no elbow drop) might be recommended by an instructor to a student who has trouble with stroke and tip-contact-point accuracy and consistency:

- It can be difficult to control the coordinated motion of the shoulder and elbow required to achieve the desired tip contact point.
- If the elbow is dropped before tip contact by accident (or by too much), the tip will hit the CB higher than intended (and the cue might bang into the rail).
- With elbow motion, it can be more difficult for some people to keep the cue moving along the desired line (e.g., if the elbow also tends to move sideways as it is moving down).
- It can take a much longer time to master and be consistent with an elbow-drop stroke.​

On the other hand, for the people who drop their elbow and can do so consistently with an accurate stroke delivery, there is no reason to change. In fact, dropping the elbow offers the following advantages:

- If the elbow is dropped before tip contact, it might make it easier to get more cue speed with less overall effort, and more smoothly.
- If the timing and coordination of the elbow and shoulder are good, the cue tip can be made to move in a straight line over the entire stroke. This could help some people maintain truer aim and sighting and hit the desired point on the CB more consistently.
- Since the elbow doesn't approach maximum elbow flex (as it can with a pendulum stroke), elbow drop might result in less strain and discomfort for some people.
- It helps encourages a more complete, more level (piston-like), and unobstructed follow-through, especially with shots requiring more cue speed.
- It doesn't result in the grip hand or forearm hitting a firm stop (e.g., on the chest).
- It looks smoother, and many people think it looks better.
- Many of the pros do it, and people like emulating the pros.
- Many people find the elbow-drop stroke more natural.​

More information on this topic can be found on the elbow drop resource page.

Regards,
Dave

 

[ENGLISH!]

Dave,

Thanks so much.

That seems to be a pretty fair comparison. You have laid it out fairly well & fairly. I wish I would have just asked you to do it a long time ago.

I would agree that if 'some' have found that they can not perform the piston J-stroke effectively & efficiently then they should probably look for a substitute. The 'pendulum' might very well be a good substitute.

Thanks Again.

Respectfully yours,

 

[FranCrimi]

Per Rick, post #206: "Lastly, as to inexact 'anaylogies' the stroke is nothing like a pendulum as the forearm is not a rod & does not 'swing' due do gravity as you have so aptly pointed out."

Rick, I can't imagine anyone arguing that a pool stroke is a true pendulum. I think a better term for it would be pendulum-like, and that's even stretching it. The main difference I think is that the pool stroke is obviously not gravity-driven. We'd have to let go at the top of the arc (let go of all control) for it to be gravity-driven, right? Am I wrong about that? Who shoots pool by just letting their arm swing?

Isn't that pretty much what you were saying?

Maybe, instead of arguing about it, we should be working on formulating a more accurate term for that type of swing.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Per Rick, post #206: "Lastly, as to inexact 'anaylogies' the stroke is nothing like a pendulum as the forearm is not a rod & does not 'swing' due do gravity as you have so aptly pointed out."

Rick, I can't imagine anyone arguing that a pool stroke is a true pendulum. I think a better term for it would be pendulum-like, and that's even stretching it. The main difference I think is that the pool stroke is obviously not gravity-driven. We'd have to let go at the top of the arc for it to be gravity-driven, right? Am I wrong about that?

Isn't that pretty much what you were saying?

Maybe, instead of arguing about it, we should be working on formulating a more accurate term for that type of swing.

"Pendulum" simply refers to the fact that the forearm hangs and pivots from a fixed point (the elbow) - you know, like a pendulum. It doesn't have to be like a pendulum in all ways for the label to be descriptive.

pj
chgo

 

[FranCrimi]

"Pendulum" simply refers to the fact that the forearm hangs and pivots from a fixed point (the elbow) - you know, like a pendulum. It doesn't have to be like a pendulum in all ways for the label to be descriptive.

pj
chgo

OK then, looking at it from that perspective, doesn't the word 'hang' become an issue, since it no longer hangs once you take control of the speed?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

OK then, looking at it from that perspective, doesn't the word 'hang' become an issue, since it no longer hangs once you take control of the speed?

I guess so, if you're looking for issues. Analogies and similies aren't expected to be exactly like the thing they describe.

pj
chgo

 

[sfleinen]

Even the apologies create arguments. Man!

That's what happens in a La Brea Tar Pit. Ah well, looks like PJ, Dr. Dave, and Fran got the thread back on track (thanks folks!).

-Sean <-- didn't order a plate of OCD for breakfast; sending it back...

 

[Pushout]

That's what happens in a La Brea Tar Pit. Ah well, looks like PJ, Dr. Dave, and Fran got the thread back on track (thanks folks!).

-Sean <-- didn't order a plate of OCD for breakfast; sending it back...

LOL! You sure they didn't just send it back again?

 

[sfleinen]

LOL! You sure they didn't just send it back again?

I have a feeling the waiter is coming back with that same order...

-Sean

 

[ENGLISH!]

Unedited dublicate deleted. Sorry.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Per Rick, post #206: "Lastly, as to inexact 'anaylogies' the stroke is nothing like a pendulum as the forearm is not a rod & does not 'swing' due do gravity as you have so aptly pointed out."

Rick, I can't imagine anyone arguing that a pool stroke is a true pendulum. I think a better term for it would be pendulum-like, and that's even stretching it. The main difference I think is that the pool stroke is obviously not gravity-driven. We'd have to let go at the top of the arc for it to be gravity-driven, right? Am I wrong about that?

Isn't that pretty much what you were saying?

Maybe, instead of arguing about it, we should be working on formulating a more accurate term for that type of swing.

Hi Fran,

How are you?

Believe it or not, I would describe myself as being an unconvinced non- conformist & hence unaccepting of the arguements that were trying to persuade me to do so & thus became agumentative. Sorry, I know that is not to your & others' liking, including myself, again believe or not.

The quote you reference was in response to Sean picking apart some of my anaylogies that I really did not mean to be an 'exact' comparison to the 'Piston J- Stroke'. So... I was just pointing out that the 'pendulum stroke' is almost in no way analogous to a true pendulum. A little nit for nat. It was not the focus of the 'discussion'.

As to the term 'pendulum', I would agree that it is very poor & even 'pendulum-like' is a stretch, as you state.

As to your question, yes, we would have to completely 'relax' & not use any muscles & simply let gravity 'pull' the arm back to perpendicular, at which time, if set up near perfectly, the tip would be at or near tip/CB contact and that would be the limit of force we could apply to the ball. I do not know, but that method might even produce a double hit dependent on the cb /ob seperation as the cue would also be uncontrolled on the other side of perpendicular other than by gravity & the affect of colliding with the CB. I do not know if a human being is even capable of doing that in a conscious state.

In the thread regarding the pull/push aspects of the delivery of the pool cue, I feel that the point was certainly made that 'no one' feels, thinks, or believes that a pool 'stroke' is anything like a gravity pendulum.

Who named it that anyway? It was not well thought out IMHO. Also do you know who developed it as a stroke to be taught?

In any case that is my take, but I defer to the scientists for a totally accurate explanation.

Perhaps, the Single Hinge Hit would be more desrciptive & user friendly.

However, that is certainly not for me to decide, as I am certainly not using it & I would not teach its' finish, except as a last resort.

The last thing I want is another word war.

Best Wishes,

 

[ENGLISH!]

Sean...

I have a feeling the waiter is coming back with that same order...

-Sean

Sean,

Am I the waiter?

If so...actually, many, many moons ago, when I was laid off from my 15 years as an Investigative Auditor for two(2) multi-million dollar International Maritime Associations, I did work as a waiter @ Brennan's Restaurant for about 2 months, between positions. It was probably the most enjoyable short term 'job' I have ever had, as it was all about an enjoyable experience for all involved.

Just thought you might want to know a good waiter's motivation is to make the experience enjoyable for all involved, so as to get that big tip. He also wants to make sure he understands the order being placed.

I only worked as a waiter for 2 months so I quess I've lost that serving mentality long ago. But.. I did notice that all legitimate types of paper money have two(2) sides. If not the money won't spend. All coins have two(2) side as well.

Funny thing, if six people take one(1) sided money to the bank they can not exchange it no mater how loud they demand that it is legitimate... at least not until the exchange person confirms that it is a new type of currency being printed & that it is legitimate even if the exchange rate may not be one to one.

If I were you, I'd go to a Casino because that was a lucky guess that I was once a waiter, even if for only 2 months @ a World Renoun Restaurant.

Best Wishes to ya',

 

[FranCrimi]

I guess so, if you're looking for issues. Analogies and similies aren't expected to be exactly like the thing they describe.

pj
chgo

I'm sure there are other ways of defining the stroke than to create a new meaning for a word that already has a specific meaning. How about calling it an arc stroke, (that is, if it's an actual arc). Then there wouldn't be the implication of a gravity-dependent motion.

 

[Bambu]

The pedulum stroke works well as a basic description for some beginners. For those who dont have much experience, its a good way for them to visualize the shoulder freezing, arm just freeely swinging(like a mime swinging on an imaginary wall). Some tend to stab at the ball, as if it were a sword. For these ambitious people trying to learn, a pendulum stroke can be a good thing.