Men vs Women

[mikepage]

[...] Or maybe less women playing pool just makes the probability of a male Filler emerging more of a once every 30 years occurrence and a woman at that level a once every 300 years occurrence and it's physically possible.
[...]

Another factor besides simple numbers (fewer women playing) is the nature of the culling of the populations of players--how meritocratic is it?

We might find 10,000 males and 1,000 females play and compete with a certain level of commitment. At first glance if there are no inherent differences we might expect that if there are 1000 men over 700 there will be 100 women over 700.

Looking closer, though, we have to ask how meritocratic was the culling of the larger populations to get these smaller groups and is the culling more meritocratic for one sex than the other.
Those 10,000 men started as a group of 10,000,000 men who played 10 games of pool.
Of those, most quit and 1,000,000 continued to play 100 or more games of pool
100,000 continued to play 1,000 or more games of pool
10,000 continued to play 10,000 or more games of pool

At each stage 90% quit and 10% continued. But to what extent was it the best 10% that continued?

In a popular competitive sport for which the pros are rich and famous heroes, the culling is quite meritocratic. The fastest kids on the schoolyard make the freshman team, and the best amongst those make the traveling team and get the coaching and encouragement, and the best amongst those are playing in college, and the best amongst those go pro. But if at any stage there are people who quit because they need to go to work or have parents who can't afford the equipment or they pivot to a more popular sport, then there are nonmeritocratic filters playing a role.

Pool, even amongst men, is only weakly meritocratic. The better players at the fraternity house are probably a little more likely to later play in a league. Those with more early success in league are a little more likely to try out tournaments. Those with a little more success in early tournaments are a little more likely to hang out with and get encouragement and advice from better players.

The culling of the women, imo, is far more complicated and more often has to do with whether a significant other plays and whether they have a family that is in the pool community somehow. That, overall, makes the culling less meritocratic for women. If so, then the 10,000 women can be drawn from a weaker population than the 10,000 men even if there are no inherent differences amongst the whole populations.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

on a long draw shot the ability to spin the cue ball depends on how FAST you hit it not how hard, and of course the follow through,.....previous post

Can you hit a shot slower with more force? Faster with less force?

How?

Stroke speed = force.

pj
chgo

 

[BasementDweller]

Is pool an athletic endeavor or not? How you answer that question determines how you answer the other.

I've always thought it was even if most people and even most players can't identify the athletic nature of the game.

 

[Twocylndr]

F=m*a, simple physics; Force equal mass times acceleration.
The faster (speed)the cue stick is swung the more force (hard) is imparted to the cue ball.
You can't have one without the other.

 

[nataddrho]

The ball is on the tip for only about a quarter-inch of travel.

Yes and to add to this… During that quarter inch of travel, the cue decelerates on its own due to the impact. There isn’t anything you can do during this time to change the behavior of the cue ball. You’re delivery to the impact point in the ball has already written the outcome in stone.

Many people refuse to believe this, but it is true.

Some think the type of stroke you have can modify the ball behavior during this time. This is also not true.

 

[Ssonerai]

F=m*a, simple physics; Force equal mass times acceleration.

true that.

The faster (speed)the cue stick is swung the more force (hard) is imparted to the cue ball.

Yabbutt.....
It's a little more complicated.
Acceleration has sec^2 involved, which is not speed.
And the equation pertains to the viewpoint of the object ball.
Which includes how long it is accelerated.
To use perhaps the simplest consideration, that is why a phenolic tip imparts more acceleration to the QB than an Elkmaster for a break cue; all other factors being the same.

Not strictly arguing, but the simplistic description does not quite get it.

During that quarter inch of travel, the cue decelerates on its own due to the impact. There isn’t anything you can do during this time to change the behavior of the cue ball. You’re delivery to the impact point in the ball has already written the outcome in stone.

It is correct from a scientific standpoint using a robot.
For a real life player, a lot can happen in that 1/4" or just before, that changes the impact velocity the ball "experiences". (velocity => direction component as well). So yeah, hit it dead straight on no physical glitches at impact + 1/4" and theory and real life match. Anything else, theory is correct but results vary, i think this is why many feel you can change the acceleration of the cueball by the motion of delivery.

 

[Justaneng]

Regarding break speed: You would think there would be some women out there with 15 years of fast pitch softball pitching experience who pick up pool and could absolutely smash a rack.

 

[WobblyStroke]

Yes and to add to this… During that quarter inch of travel, the cue decelerates on its own due to the impact. There isn’t anything you can do during this time to change the behavior of the cue ball. You’re delivery to the impact point in the ball has already written the outcome in stone.

Many people refuse to believe this, but it is true.

Some think the type of stroke you have can modify the ball behavior during this time. This is also not true.

Ye but the type of stroke you have affects how you get to impact so it matters the most....even if nothing is affected during contact.

 

[King T]

Imo, the main difference is far fewer women are silly enough to devote themselves to knocking pool balls to develop fully.

Just out of curiosity, what do you mean "silly enough to devote themselves to knocking pool balls to develope fully"?

 

[nataddrho]

Ye but the type of stroke you have affects how you get to impact so it matters the most....even if nothing is affected during contact.

Very correct.

 

[nataddrho]

For a real life player, a lot can happen in that 1/4" or just before, that changes the impact velocity the ball "experiences". (velocity => direction component as well). So yeah, hit it dead straight on no physical glitches at impact + 1/4" and theory and real life match. Anything else, theory is correct but results vary, i think this is why many feel you can change the acceleration of the cueball by the motion of delivery.

This is diverting Freddie’s topic…

No, nothing you can do with your muscles can change anything during the 1/4” 2ms long contact time. Period. Even if you are massively swerving the cue, it is still has no effect for such a short period of time.

Yes, anything can happen before the contact time to change where it impacts on the ball, which what gives a different outcome.

 

[Black-Balled]

Just out of curiosity, what do you mean "silly enough to devote themselves to knocking pool balls to develope fully"?

That I know far more men who believe knocking pool balls around is something to devote major to time than winmins who believe such.

It takes that devotion to reach the highest level.

 

[DynoDan]

No, nothing you can do with your muscles can change anything during the 1/4” 2ms long contact time. Period.

So, if you totally released your grip force in the last inch of travel (before impact), that would not lessen the CB speed at all, compared to maintaining maximum grip force throughout the break stroke (assuming same delivered cue speed)?

 

[Justaneng]

The culling of the women, imo, is far more complicated and more often has to do with whether a significant other plays and whether they have a family that is in the pool community somehow. That, overall, makes the culling less meritocratic for women. If so, then the 1,000 women can be drawn from a weaker population than the 10,000 men even if there are no inherent differences amongst the whole populations.

I think the “significant other” aspect plays a role, but I don’t think it’s an access thing. I think among the Fargo 400+ community, women are going to set their dating preferences such that their partners have to be pool players (at least at the hobby level), whereas men don’t have the same requirement for their partners, and that’s merely a supply and demand thing. A female can make that demand because they’re outnumbered 10:1 on interest alone.

I don’t think there is a flock of female APA-6’s sitting at home on league night because their spouse doesn’t play pool.

 

[nataddrho]

So, if you totally released your grip force in the last inch of travel (before impact), that would not lessen the CB speed at all, compared to maintaining maximum grip force throughout the break stroke (assuming same delivered cue speed)?

Both of these events happen before contact, so yes, it will change the cue ball outcome. Though an inch is still very close to call.

But if you try to do it during the 2ms you will find that you can’t make any difference in the outcome. Your hand can not physically move fast enough during 2ms to completely couple and decouple itself from the cue. Even so, if you imagine that your muscles could instantly react, still the flesh of your hand acts like a low pass filter, attenuating any magically fast muscle movement in this thought experiment.

I am completely guessing but the response of muscle at the very fastest in humans might be around 100ms?

 

[SSP]

I'm unclear on how you differentiate between fast and hard. I think for most people talking about shots those words are synonyms.

And careful study has shown that follow through is not important except for making sure you hit the ball fast/hard. The ball is on the tip for only about a quarter-inch of travel.

Thanks Bob, I respect your many years of work, I haven't returned to playing pool for a year yet after about 20 years, I used to be able to draw the cue ball pretty well, upon return I was lucky to draw the ball 1foot if I was lucky and I was hitting the ball really hard, what I found out was while hitting the ball hard my muscles, the few that I have, were really tight, I had some AA players watch my stroke and both of them said you need to have smooth acceleration and better follow through, I have been working on that for about 4 months with no noticeable results, so after watching a lot of pro players I noticed they got tons of draw and didn't hit the cue ball hard but fast, the stroke was quick, so I relaxed all my muscles and concentrated on smooth speed of stroke and I couldn't believe how far I was able to draw the ball and how the ball would "take" and would seem to speed up, I can now hit an object ball 6ft away and draw it straight back 6ft or more, I am working on tip placement and I know I've got a long way to go but the change was like overnight, applied the same logic to my follow shots with the same type of results, that has been my experience, I don't hit the cue ball nearly as hard and my accuracy is improving.

 

[markjames]

here is an article that takes physical
power out of the equation-

women vs. men just putting

Matthew Rudy: Why Women Putt Worse Than Men

Experts debate the stats, the empirical evidence and the future

www.golfdigest.com

 

[markjames]

Why are only two of the world’s top 100 chess players women? | Aeon Essays

Little girls sign up to play chess in droves. So why are so few of the world’s top players women?

aeon.co

and listening to a female chess player talk
about her daughter’s experience with chess
i found eye opening

 

[Coos Cues]

Freddie, I think that the major difference between men and women stems from the traditional roles that each one had and the evolution based off of those roles.

God made males of every mammal species bigger, stronger and faster from the jump. Whether you think this was a good idea or not is beside the point. The differences have absolutely nothing to due with the roles they had during evolution. The roles were the product of the differences not the cause.

 

[DynoDan]

This issue seems ‘cut & dried’ to me. Men’s tournaments should always be open to female (or trans) entries. In games requiring less physical strength (14.1, one-pocket, etc.), they might be especially competitive. Male-to-female trans (or vice-versa) entrants should be banned from women’s events. Suspicious players may have entry/payout withheld, contingent upon genetic evidence, or drug testing for male hormone treatment preceding female-to male transition (assuming testosterone influences the male ‘advantage‘?). Top-level-threat entrants who object, could always thus play the men instead.