Some evidence of what I have long suspected about Fargorating

[Coos Cues]

I have long since maintained that due to tiredness, apathy and other factors that I play well below my speed in league play. Which skews my fargo downward. It seems I always go up a bit after out of town events and down a bit when the drudgery of league play returns. Of course this has been refuted aggressively.

So here is the evidence. There is no one in my league with a higher fargo rating than myself. So I am a favorite of varying degrees in every rack. If you look at the histogram below you can see that I am dominating players equal and above my rating which I only encounter when playing out of the area while the next step down not so much. These are my league players since that is the vast majority of my games in the system. This is not the expected result of the system. These are league players where the seriousness level is considerably lower. Just stopped caring about winning these games long ago. And therein lies the fargorate rub.

Case closed.

 

[jokrswylde]

I have long since maintained that due to tiredness, apathy and other factors that I play well below my speed in league play. Which skews my fargo downward. It seems I always go up a bit after out of town events and down a bit when the drudgery of league play returns. Of course this has been refuted aggressively.

So here is the evidence. There is no one in my league with a higher fargo rating than myself. So I am a favorite of varying degrees in every rack. If you look at the histogram below you can see that I am dominating players equal and above my rating which I only encounter when playing out of the area while the next step down not so much. These are my league players since that is the vast majority of my games in the system. This is not the expected result of the system. These are league players where the seriousness level is considerably lower. Just stopped caring about winning these games long ago. And therein lies the fargorate rub.

Case closed.

View attachment 745203

Dont know ow much about FR, but could familiarity have anything to do with it? I know that after playing session after session with the same people they:

A. Develop a familiarity and comfort with playing each other so many times, which leads to...

B. Knowing the strategy and shots that are likely to give their opponents more problems...

I know I give much higher rated people in my league fits because I have a better sense of how they don't like to play...

Might not be relevant to your situation, just some food for thought.

 

[DCMike]

No matter how well you play against strong opposition, dogging it against weaker players will drag your FR down. I fail to see the controversy here.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I have long since maintained that due to tiredness, apathy and other factors that I play well below my speed in league play. Which skews my fargo downward. It seems I always go up a bit after out of town events and down a bit when the drudgery of league play returns. Of course this has been refuted aggressively. ...

I don't think anyone who understands how the ratings are calculated would argue with your premise.

If a player goes to their local league night tired, hungry and a little drunk, and those things make them play poorly, their rating will be dragged down relative to when they are going to a weekend tournament rested, fed and sober, And like you showed, the percentages can demonstrate the difference in stats.

A side effect of that kind of dynamic is that the league opponents will have slightly raised ratings and the tourney opponents will have slightly lowered ratings relative to what they would be if their common opponent played more consistently.

I wonder how far apart your two ratings -- league and pro-am -- are. How many FR points?

 

[DeeDeeCues]

Dont know ow much about FR, but could familiarity have anything to do with it? I know that after playing session after session with the same people they:

A. Develop a familiarity and comfort with playing each other so many times, which leads to...

B. Knowing the strategy and shots that are likely to give their opponents more problems...

I know I give much higher rated people in my league fits because I have a better sense of how they don't like to play...

Might not be relevant to your situation, just some food for thought.

Big aha moment for you, but it isn't a failure of Fargorate, it is a failure of players like you.

League data is likely bad data and probably shouldn't be used in fr.

 

[Coos Cues]

I don't think anyone who understands how the ratings are calculated would argue with your premise.

If a player goes to their local league night tired, hungry and a little drunk, and those things make them play poorly, their rating will be dragged down relative to when they are going to a weekend tournament rested, fed and sober, And like you showed, the percentages can demonstrate the difference in stats.

A side effect of that kind of dynamic is that the league opponents will have slightly raised ratings and the tourney opponents will have slightly lowered ratings relative to what they would be if their common opponent played more consistently.

I wonder how far apart your two ratings -- league and pro-am -- are. How many FR points?

There have been threads here where people have argued against my premise. I would have to do some digging but my old brain seems to recall one of them being Mike Page. Conversations where league play vs tournament play have been compared for the purpose of Fargorate.

And since I am known as top in the league, no matter how little I care about the result the lower rated opponents seem to give their best effort so there is that. Everyone wants to beat me in particular.

I don't know how to separate and calculate the two entities but I wouldn't be surprised if I were 25-30 points higher on the road than in league play.

Assuming that the players I have played equal or higher than myself also play a lot in league then maybe they are younger and not tired of it yet or something else because if they were experiencing the same dynamics than all should be equal when we match up yet the results say otherwise.

I like numbers and find it interesting.

 

[tomatoshooter]

Big aha moment for you, but it isn't a failure of Fargorate, it is a failure of players like you.

League data is likely bad data and probably shouldn't be used in fr.

I think Mike Page should call me before every match and ask how I'm feeling so the he can weight the games properly.

 

[BRKNRUN]

So....if the highest Fargo in the league is 602....and you say you don't try.....It suggests to me that nobody in the league takes the games "seriously"

Sounds like a social league....

I see no games at all against a 700+ player ...I suggest move to Arizona...there are multiple leagues that have teams that take it seriously....and some 700 players that will tie you up in knots and then run out...or just plain break and run out

Lots of teams looking for a decent right around 600 Fargo to get them under the team cap but can still have a chance at beating the better players

 

[buckshotshoey]

I don't think anyone who understands how the ratings are calculated would argue with your premise.

If a player goes to their local league night tired, hungry and a little drunk, and those things make them play poorly, their rating will be dragged down relative to when they are going to a weekend tournament rested, fed and sober, And like you showed, the percentages can demonstrate the difference in stats.

A side effect of that kind of dynamic is that the league opponents will have slightly raised ratings and the tourney opponents will have slightly lowered ratings relative to what they would be if their common opponent played more consistently.

I wonder how far apart your two ratings -- league and pro-am -- are. How many FR points?

Especially after getting up at 6am, and working 8 to 10 hours

 

[skip100]

I don't think anyone who understands how the ratings are calculated would argue with your premise.

If a player goes to their local league night tired, hungry and a little drunk, and those things make them play poorly, their rating will be dragged down relative to when they are going to a weekend tournament rested, fed and sober, And like you showed, the percentages can demonstrate the difference in stats.

A side effect of that kind of dynamic is that the league opponents will have slightly raised ratings and the tourney opponents will have slightly lowered ratings relative to what they would be if their common opponent played more consistently.

I wonder how far apart your two ratings -- league and pro-am -- are. How many FR points?

People love “discovering” things about Fargo that are actually common knowledge.

 

[Tin Man]

Fargorate tells how good a player is based on results that actually happened.

You are a 602 because you have performed as a 602. You can say "Well I could play better than that if I tried harder". OK. But you didn't try harder. So you are a 602. I don't really understand the discrepancy.

Maybe you could say "I perform better than average when I am playing against strong players in big tournaments when I am really engaged". Fair enough. You are still a 602, just a 602 trying their best. Fargorate is an average of how you play across all moods and motivation levels.

Furthermore, your disengaged league sessions are also against a bunch of people playing leagues that might be drinking beers and not always trying their best either. So maybe it works itself out to a degree.

But if you really want this argument to work I suppose you could say "Ha, I dump all league season so I am underrated, Fargo is broken". It almost becomes a question of sandbagging and what Fargo does to ensure good data.

Finally, Fargo never claims that it is perfect in the sense that it absolutely accurately reflects a global ranking of a million pool players. No man made system can be perfect. Heck, if Filler lost an arm today in a car crash he wouldn't be the best player in the world and his Fargo would be WAY off, does that prove Fargo is broken? That is silly. It's a man made system that isn't capable of omniscient real time rankings. So if you compare it to perfect it will fall short. But here's the thing- if you compare it to anything else in the pool world it is far superior. We can't compare to perfection, we just have to compare to the best alternatives, and here Fargorate is clearly the industry leader by miles.

 

[Chili Palmer]

I have long since maintained that due to tiredness, apathy and other factors that I play well below my speed in league play. Which skews my fargo downward. It seems I always go up a bit after out of town events and down a bit when the drudgery of league play returns. Of course this has been refuted aggressively.

So here is the evidence. There is no one in my league with a higher fargo rating than myself. So I am a favorite of varying degrees in every rack. If you look at the histogram below you can see that I am dominating players equal and above my rating which I only encounter when playing out of the area while the next step down not so much. These are my league players since that is the vast majority of my games in the system. This is not the expected result of the system. These are league players where the seriousness level is considerably lower. Just stopped caring about winning these games long ago. And therein lies the fargorate rub.

Case closed.

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Looks like a clear cut case of sandbagging to me (Just kidding, I don't believe for a second that you would do that).

I think it's been covered quite a bit but, players can average between 50 points higher and 50 points lower than their FR. I am not different but I think I go the other way, I perform better when playing league (when I played) and worst when I play people I don't know.

 

[Coos Cues]

I don't think anyone who understands how the ratings are calculated would argue with your premise.

Fargorate tells how good a player is based on results that actually happened.

You are a 602 because you have performed as a 602. You can say "Well I could play better than that if I tried harder". OK. But you didn't try harder. So you are a 602. I don't really understand the discrepancy.

OK

 

[Jimmorrison]

I understand what you are saying, and agree it happens. I play in two leagues. One is handicapped and most of the players are below me in skill. The other is open and most of the players are above me in skill. I rank about 20th out of 80, in both leagues. How is this possible? My wife says, “you hate anybody that’s better than you, and you just want to step on their neck. That’s how you’ve always been.

 

[DCMike]

There have been threads here where people have argued against my premise. I would have to do some digging but my old brain seems to recall one of them being Mike Page. Conversations where league play vs tournament play have been compared for the purpose of Fargorate.

And since I am known as top in the league, no matter how little I care about the result the lower rated opponents seem to give their best effort so there is that. Everyone wants to beat me in particular.

I don't know how to separate and calculate the two entities but I wouldn't be surprised if I were 25-30 points higher on the road than in league play.

Assuming that the players I have played equal or higher than myself also play a lot in league then maybe they are younger and not tired of it yet or something else because if they were experiencing the same dynamics than all should be equal when we match up yet the results say otherwise.

I like numbers and find it interesting.

If your assertion is “My FR is dragged down because I play a lot of league games that I don’t take seriously” , then I doubt people will argue with that.

If your assertion is “FR should not treat league/tournament data the same” , and your evidence is merely anecdotal, then you'll get pushback. This would be true even without admission of your apathy towards league games.

 

[SJpilot]

I think it's been covered quite a bit but, players can average between 50 points higher and 50 points lower than their FR. .

So me on my best day is supposed to give hungover me 7- 4. That actually is probably pretty close.

Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk

 

[Willowbrook Wolfy]

Just watched PoolHall Junkies the other day. “If you only play losers you’ll become a loser”. Just how it is.

What I really want to know is how you are 80% against 600’s and only a 602.

 

[skip100]

Just watched PoolHall Junkies the other day. “If you only play losers you’ll become a loser”. Just how it is.

What I really want to know is how you are 80% against 600’s and only a 602.

Probably a small sample size, counteracted by his lower win percentage against a larger sample of 500 level players.

 

[SJpilot]

Just watched PoolHall Junkies the other day. “If you only play losers you’ll become a loser”. Just how it is.

What I really want to know is how you are 80% against 600’s and only a 602.

It's cause he's played worse against 500's than 600's and not that much better against 400's. Almost like he's playing the ghost, doesn't matter how well the other player is he just concedes the racks he doesn't run out.

Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk

 

[DeeDeeCues]

Probably a small sample size, counteracted by his lower win percentage against a larger sample of 500 level players.

Maybe the 600's he played were tired, drunk, not talking it seriously, and in a fight with their wives.

What the op is describing is sandbagging, whether 'intentional' or not.