A simple answer to the APA/BCA Amateur League dilemma

Garo 7

Garo 7

Registered
So, I was thinking... with all the talk lately about serious players unhappy with the APA & BCA amateur leagues, format, table size, handicap system, memberships, etc., it seems we really need a league that is for more serious players. I mean if the primary focus of the current leagues is really to have a good time playing and socialize, then you cant really fault this I think. I mean hey, it's their league and they have been enjoying it a damn long time. It just doesn't hold much value for the most serious players among us.

The solution seems simple to me: We need a league that is for the more serious top amateurs, and those that would like to grow to this level, that plays on full sized tables with a minimal handicap system. Then I realized: We already have it - the BCA.

Why not elevate this league to professions specs? Full sized tables, even the championships, and perhaps an annual membership fee that covers all league nights for the entire season/year? Anyone who doesn't like the requirements being increased can migrate down to APA for a while.

If this is too much for the current BCA membership, then we could even create a second level of BCA, 'BCA2' for this? I think people might be surprised how huge the membership might quickly grow to be.

Then we have an amateur league for those far more serious about their skills and competing, and one that is for those who are really digging it as a social outlet. Folks could evolve from the lower one to the higher one too.

I have a dream: I would like to see top amateurs competing on full sized tables someday at championships. Lets make BCA a true pool league, using the same tables, and with the same game specs as the pro leagues. WPA rules. I don't think I am the only one who feels this way.

We have embraced the social aspect of this league thing for decades now. It is great and has grown the interest in the sport a lot I think. Now, perhaps it is time we expanded things to also embrace the more serious amateurs players as well, and give them an outlet to truly expand their skills and accomplishments, and see how much further it can take us all, and the sport.

Well, just a thought...
 
Garo 7 said:
So, I was thinking... with all the talk lately about serious players unhappy with the APA & BCA amateur leagues, format, table size, handicap system, memberships, etc., it seems we really need a league that is for more serious players. I mean if the primary focus of the current leagues is really to have a good time playing and socialize, then you cant really fault this I think. I mean hey, it's their league and they have been enjoying it a damn long time. It just doesn't hold much value for the most serious players among us.

The solution seems simple to me: We need a league that is for the more serious top amateurs, and those that would like to grow to this level, that plays on full sized tables with a minimal handicap system. Then I realized: We already have it - the BCA.

Why not elevate this league to professions specs? Full sized tables, even the championships, and perhaps an annual membership fee that covers all league nights for the entire season/year? Anyone who doesn't like the requirements being increased can migrate down to APA for a while.

If this is too much for the current BCA membership, then we could even create a second level of BCA, 'BCA2' for this? I think people might be surprised how huge the membership might quickly grow to be.

Then we have an amateur league for those far more serious about their skills and competing, and one that is for those who are really digging it as a social outlet. Folks could evolve from the lower one to the higher one too.

I have a dream: I would like to see top amateurs competing on full sized tables someday at championships. Lets make BCA a true pool league, using the same tables, and with the same game specs as the pro leagues. WPA rules. I don't think I am the only one who feels this way.

We have embraced the social aspect of this league thing for decades now. It is great and has grown the interest in the sport a lot I think. Now, perhaps it is time we expanded things to also embrace the more serious amateurs players as well, and give them an outlet to truly expand their skills and accomplishments, and see how much further it can take us all, and the sport.

Well, just a thought...
Click to expand...

I assume that by "full size" tables you mean 9' tables?

The answer is easy.

Because there aren't enough in enough rooms to support the number of players to make the league(s) profitable/viable...
 
Well we have little to no 9 ft tables in my area so thats a problem. Everything is barbox.

The other problem and the reason I stopped played bca in my area is a match consists of 4 sets with 5 games played in each set. You can only play 1 game in each set so that means you don’t play anymore then 4 games of pool in a night. Playing 1 game and then sitting for an hour to me is a joke. That’s not serious. That’s hanging out with your boys and playing the occasional game.

The best league I’ve played in is apa masters. No handicap. You play 5 games of 8 ball and up to 8 games of 9 ball first to 7 wins. Jump cues and push outs are allowed. The problem is keeping the league together. Not enough apa players want to play without the help of a handicap so the leagues are weak.
 
Garo 7 said:
... Lets make BCA a true pool league, ....
Click to expand...
A small nit... The BCA is not a pool league. It is a manufacturers organization. It has essentially no player members. It is the North American member of the WPA.

The BCAPL is a pool league. That's what the PL stands for. The BCA part stands for nothing. It's just letters. The BCAPL belongs to CSI (Cue Sports International, an American company headquartered in Las Vegas). The USAPL also is a league system that belongs to CSI.

The BCA had a league system from about 1983(?), Around 2005, it sold that system to Mark Griffin. Griffin founded CSI. The BCA sued Mark Griffin to stop him from using the old name of the league. The BCA lost the court case as they had agreed at the time of the sale that Griffin could continue to use the name for brand recognition. Or, that's the reported story.

It is CSI that would have to be convinced that a profit could be made from serious pool players on 9-foot tables. Well, maybe not. Alternatively, convince the BCA -- the governing body of pool in North America -- that a league of more serious players on 9-foot tables is a good idea.
 
Leagues were always aimed at amateur players.
Serious players should focus more on tournaments with no handicap.
Of course that one can keep playing league if wish, it’s about having some fun. But if you don’t enjoy it then don’t play
 
IMO APA has amateur pool locked up. It's the only league where sandbagging is literally unheard of. League operators who get caught letting sandbagging occur can and do lose their franchises..It's a big deal. Annual dues $40, weekly playing fee's $8 and house green fee's can also be substantial. The active members in APA are unknown but I think they are around 200K. Going up against them is a difficult task. Now that Terry Bell passed away I'll be curious to see how they fare.
 
Baby Huey said:
IMO APA has amateur pool locked up. It's the only league where sandbagging is literally unheard of. League operators who get caught letting sandbagging occur can and do lose their franchises..It's a big deal. Annual dues $40, weekly playing fee's $8 and house green fee's can also be substantial. The active members in APA are unknown but I think they are around 200K. Going up against them is a difficult task. Now that Terry Bell passed away I'll be curious to see how they fare.
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I went to acs last year and apa this year and the size difference is insane. It’s like comparing the amount of people that show up for a high school football and the amount of people that show up for the super bowl. Lol they would really have to screw up to kill that league.
 
Bob Jewett said:
A small nit... The BCA is not a pool league. It is a manufacturers organization. It has essentially no player members. It is the North American member of the WPA.

The BCAPL is a pool league. That's what the PL stands for. The BCA part stands for nothing. It's just letters. The BCAPL belongs to CSI (Cue Sports International, an American company headquartered in Las Vegas). The USAPL also is a league system that belongs to CSI.

The BCA had a league system from about 1983(?), Around 2005, it sold that system to Mark Griffin. Griffin founded CSI. The BCA sued Mark Griffin to stop him from using the old name of the league. The BCA lost the court case as they had agreed at the time of the sale that Griffin could continue to use the name for brand recognition. Or, that's the reported story.

It is CSI that would have to be convinced that a profit could be made from serious pool players on 9-foot tables. Well, maybe not. Alternatively, convince the BCA -- the governing body of pool in North America -- that a league of more serious players on 9-foot tables is a good idea.
Click to expand...
Interesting, thanks for the history! I can see it isn't likely to change...
 
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skor said:
Leagues were always aimed at amateur players.
Serious players should focus more on tournaments with no handicap.
Of course that one can keep playing league if wish, it’s about having some fun. But if you don’t enjoy it then don’t play
Click to expand...
Bob Jewett said:
A small nit... The BCA is not a pool league. It is a manufacturers organization. It has essentially no player members. It is the North American member of the WPA.

The BCAPL is a pool league. That's what the PL stands for. The BCA part stands for nothing. It's just letters. The BCAPL belongs to CSI (Cue Sports International, an American company headquartered in Las Vegas). The USAPL also is a league system that belongs to CSI.

The BCA had a league system from about 1983(?), Around 2005, it sold that system to Mark Griffin. Griffin founded CSI. The BCA sued Mark Griffin to stop him from using the old name of the league. The BCA lost the court case as they had agreed at the time of the sale that Griffin could continue to use the name for brand recognition. Or, that's the reported story.

It is CSI that would have to be convinced that a profit could be made from serious pool players on 9-foot tables. Well, maybe not. Alternatively, convince the BCA -- the governing body of pool in North America -- that a league of more serious players on 9-foot tables is a good idea.
Click to expand...
So, I notice your signature "SF Billiard Academy". I lived in the Bay Area for 30 years. I am imagining a nice hall, lots of players, some really good that study seriously. Sounds like the kind of place to be. Nice to know some of the halls there survived covid. The couple of places I used to like in San Mateo/RWC area closed down I think.
 
These are generalizations I've found to be true over the years:

Good players could not care less about league fees, handicaps, format, table size, or drama.
Good players like to play solo. They do NOT want to be on a pool team.
Good playrs like to come and go as they please. Not be committed to a weekly league for 12 weeks. Think hooker vs gf.
Good players like to make their own games, not be dictated what the spot is.
Good playrs like to play other good players. Most league players are much lowers skill (I do realize that is your point though, to make the skill higher in league).

All of the above is reason to forget you ever had this idea and go gamble with a good player instead:)
 
I prefer league over tournaments, less stress. I just want to play pool, I like the routine of once a week I get to compete and play pool with other people.
I'm past the age of ambition and trying to get somewhere with my game and league is more fun, even if it is taken seriously by the players.
I get my money worth in table time, win or lose.
I stated to attend small weekly 9ball tournament and have done pretty well in those as well as in league. Not bad for someone who haven't compete in 15 years...

I guess the experience and enjoyment from league might vary from place to place.
I remember APA being a lot of fun when I played (1998 NYC), from what I read here, I guess something is really wrong with pool these days in the USA. BUT just like guns don't kill, it's the persons that holds it, pool is not wrong or bad, it's the people. Maybe get your act together before picking up a cue.
 
iusedtoberich said:
These are generalizations I've found to be true over the years:

Good players could not care less about league fees, handicaps, format, table size, or drama.
Good players like to play solo. They do NOT want to be on a pool team.
Good playrs like to come and go as they please. Not be committed to a weekly league for 12 weeks. Think hooker vs gf.
Good players like to make their own games, not be dictated what the spot is.
Good playrs like to play other good players. Most league players are much lowers skill (I do realize that is your point though, to make the skill higher in league).

All of the above is reason to forget you ever had this idea and go gamble with a good player instead:)
Click to expand...
Yeah, action is fun. We just don't have that here I guess really. I live in a weird area... but, there are a couple of halls I haven't frequented yet so, maybe there. Problem is they are both a 30-40 (freeway) drive to get to for me. But, I am just getting started really, so no biggie.

Naw, I just had a stupid idea, and made the even stupider mistake of saying it out loud. Here no less! lol Go figure... haha
 
Baby Huey said:
IMO APA has amateur pool locked up. It's the only league where sandbagging is literally unheard of. League operators who get caught letting sandbagging occur can and do lose their franchises..It's a big deal. Annual dues $40, weekly playing fee's $8 and house green fee's can also be substantial. The active members in APA are unknown but I think they are around 200K. Going up against them is a difficult task. Now that Terry Bell passed away I'll be curious to see how they fare.
Click to expand...
LOL. Come on. Sandbagging in APA is rampant.
 
Garo 7 said:
Yeah, action is fun. We just don't have that here I guess really. I live in a weird area... but, there are a couple of halls I haven't frequented yet so, maybe there. Problem is they are both a 30-40 (freeway) drive to get to for me. But, I am just getting started really, so no biggie.

Naw, I just had a stupid idea, and made the even stupider mistake of saying it out loud. Here no less! lol Go figure... haha
Click to expand...
If you want to attract the better players, and have more official rules, a tournament is the way to do it. Plus, it's WAY WAY less herding cats and drama than a league. You can start your own if you don't like the existing ones in your area. That's actually what I did. Anyone can be a TD today with DigitalPool and also have it submitted to FargoRate, which the better player will like.
 
had a stupid idea, and made the even stupider mistake of saying it out loud.
Click to expand...

I have an idea!
IMG_0327.webp

That’s dumb.
IMG_0329.jpeg


It was only an idea.
IMG_0330.jpeg

My dad used to have a strip of pictures like this on his office wall.

They can’t all be winners, so no point feeling embarrassed. Nobody remembers anything past page 3.

Spit it out.
IMG_0331.jpeg
 
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