ChalkGate Definitive Answers

dr_dave

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
FYI, I just posted a new video that discusses the ChalkGate controversy during the recent US Open Championship surrounding Darren Appleton and Mickey Kraus and shows the results of a careful experiment to prove once and for all if Master chalk results in more frequent skid than Taom chalk. Check it out:


Contents:
  • 0:00 - Intro
  • 0:52 - Cling/Skid/Kick
  • 2:40 - Experimental Procedure
  • 6:50 - Taom Chalk Tests
  • 9:34 - Master Chalk Tests
  • 12:08 - Results and Conclusions
  • 13:55 - Recommendations
  • 15:15 - More Info
Supporting Resources:
As always, I look forward to your feedback, comments, questions, complaints, and requests.

Enjoy!
 
A few thoughts on this matter:
1. Even if you use good premium chalk, it won’t do much good if your opponent uses Master or something similar.

2. Dirt on the cue ball that will result in skids may be picked up from a dirty cloth. This dirt might as well get on the object balls as well so even cleaning the cue ball won’t help much. So basically skids are just part of the game… especially in amateur play as tables condition is usually not that great as pro tournaments were everything is new and clean.

3. Personally, I use premium chalk mainly for keeping my hands clean
 
skor said:
A few thoughts on this matter:
1. Even if you use good premium chalk, it won’t do much good if your opponent uses Master or something similar.

2. Dirt on the cue ball that will result in skids may be picked up from a dirty cloth. This dirt might as well get on the object balls as well so even cleaning the cue ball won’t help much. So basically skids are just part of the game… especially in amateur play as tables condition is usually not that great as pro tournaments were everything is new and clean.

3. Personally, I use premium chalk mainly for keeping my hands clean
Click to expand...

that's what i've said for years. i don't have a home table. the pool hall tables see a lot of bangers, and about 30-50% of the regular players use traditional chalk. i don't mind TAOM but as long as it's not provided by the pool hall i'll keep using masters.
 
skor said:
A few thoughts on this matter:
1. Even if you use good premium chalk, it won’t do much good if your opponent uses Master or something similar.
Click to expand...

It would do 1/2 as much good, but this will help your opponent also.

skor said:
2. Dirt on the cue ball that will result in skids may be picked up from a dirty cloth. This dirt might as well get on the object balls as well so even cleaning the cue ball won’t help much. So basically skids are just part of the game… especially in amateur play as tables condition is usually not that great as pro tournaments were everything is new and clean.
Click to expand...

I am pretty sure most skids come from tip chalk marks on the CB (on on OBs from previous skids, or from dunce heads hitting OBs with the tip).

skor said:
3. Personally, I use premium chalk mainly for keeping my hands clean
Click to expand...

Everything stays cleaner with the premium chalks.
 
dr_dave said:
I am pretty sure most skids come from tip chalk marks on the CB (on on OBs from previous skids, or from dunce heads hitting OBs with the tip).
Click to expand...
Dust and chalk dust picked up from the table will be just the same.

Also, there was a thread about mixed sets of balls at the pool halls, sometimes the difference in balls (mass, weight, age, cleanliness) will cause skids.

For most of us, just live with it, there is no difference between an occasional skid to occasional ball’s path changed due to dirt on the table.
It’s rare for the average player to have top pro tournaments conditions that we can win or lose because of chalk.

I just like my hands and clothes clean 😊
 
dr_dave said:
FYI, I just posted a new video that discusses the ChalkGate controversy during the recent US Open Championship surrounding Darren Appleton and Mickey Kraus and shows the results of a careful experiment to prove once and for all if Master chalk results in more frequent skid than Taom chalk. Check it out:


Contents:
  • 0:00 - Intro
  • 0:52 - Cling/Skid/Kick
  • 2:40 - Experimental Procedure
  • 6:50 - Taom Chalk Tests
  • 9:34 - Master Chalk Tests
  • 12:08 - Results and Conclusions
  • 13:55 - Recommendations
  • 15:15 - More Info
Supporting Resources:
As always, I look forward to your feedback, comments, questions, complaints, and requests.

Enjoy!
Click to expand...
Great video, Doc. I do like the pic of Kraus covered in blue Master chalk that someone put on AZB better than the pic of Darren covered in blue though. 🤣
 
skor said:
Dust and chalk dust picked up from the table will be just the same.

Also, there was a thread about mixed sets of balls at the pool halls, sometimes the difference in balls (mass, weight, age, cleanliness) will cause skids.

For most of us, just live with it, there is no difference between an occasional skid to occasional ball’s path changed due to dirt on the table.
It’s rare for the average player to have top pro tournaments conditions that we can win or lose because of chalk.

I just like my hands and clothes clean 😊
Click to expand...
Doc's video shows that the chalk wears off of the cue ball with play, not that the cue ball picks up even more chalk. I think the table would have to be covered in an unusual amount of chalk for the balls to pick up enough chalk to cause skids.
 
fastone371 said:
Doc's video shows that the chalk wears off of the cue ball with play, not that the cue ball picks up even more chalk. I think the table would have to be covered in an unusual amount of chalk for the balls to pick up enough chalk to cause skids.
Click to expand...
His table is a well maintained home table, not your average bar or pool hall.
Dirty balls will skid more than clean balls
 
I kinda understand how Darren feels... Our club all have to use Taom chalks, put balls in cleaner after stop playing and skids almost never happen..
So when they happen you see them clearly and then it feels so wrong! hahahha
Must be same feel with Darren after that happens in important place and maybe he played home many months without skids..
Darren have always been so competitive that i can understand when he is heated he can say things hastily..
 
Master Chalk causes more skids than premium chalk and this is common knowledge. I've never heard anyone suggest otherwise, but you've measured the extent to which it is true and under what conditions, giving form to the matter. Well done. Great video!

I still think the biggest takeaway from this incident is in the area of sportsmanship and general propriety. Darren's outburst was way out of bounds, and to go public with a negative rant about the product of a company that has supported pool for decades is just plain wrong. Equipment can and does become outdated. If the players are of one mind with respect to the unsuitability of a product or piece of equipment in the pro game, they can petition the event producers, who would have to assess the advisability of disallowing it in their events.

Pro players who saw this occurrence live or on video should be just as concerned about how bad a look this is for pro pool as they are about the already widely accepted fact that there are more skids with Master chalk, to which you have given great form and clarity.

PS I would extend the definition of cling to include any foreign substance, not just chalk. Grady Matthews used to take note of how players whose hands were not clean or who had been handling things like food or drinks can get foreign substances on the balls. There's a reason that only referees should be touching the balls in the biggest spots in top pro competition.
 
In looking up coefficients of friction for leather (https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/friction-coefficients-d_778.html#gsc.tab=0) it is seen that leather-metal has a coefficient u=0.6, which is within the theoretical neighborhood of what is needed for no-miscue.

It makes me wonder if spending more effort in developing a chalkless leather tip would be better than trying to get more friction and less dust out of the chalk.

I did find a "scientific" paper where they looked at chalk v. no-chalk, but as soon as I saw that they used screw on tips for the experiment, dismissed it due to improper methods.
 
sjm said:
Darren's outburst was way out of bounds, and to go public with a negative rant about the product of a company that has supported pool for decades is just plain wrong. Equipment can and does become outdated.
Click to expand...

sjm said:
Darren's outburst was way out of bounds, and to go public with a negative rant about the product of a company that has supported pool for decades is just plain wrong. Equipment can and does become outdated.
Click to expand...
I understand why Master still produce this chalk and so other cheap brands, pool clubs and bars won't buy crates of Taom or other premium chalk...
But I don't understand why they don't put out their own premium chalk to stay relevant. It doesn't matter what master did in the past, it's what they are doing today and tomorrow.
A good example is Kodak, once a major brand in photography, a household name, and they also sponsored photography events and competitions but they decided to stay behind, not going the digital route (that they pioneered) and what was left of Kodak?
So sorry, I don't feel anything towards Master.
But I do agree that Darren outburst is out of bounds, just like Darren knows how to be.
 
Not Dead Ted said:
In looking up coefficients of friction for leather (https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/friction-coefficients-d_778.html#gsc.tab=0) it is seen that leather-metal has a coefficient u=0.6, which is within the theoretical neighborhood of what is needed for no-miscue.

It makes me wonder if spending more effort in developing a chalkless leather tip would be better than trying to get more friction and less dust out of the chalk.

I did find a "scientific" paper where they looked at chalk v. no-chalk, but as soon as I saw that they used screw on tips for the experiment, dismissed it due to improper methods.
Click to expand...
Chalkless tip is definitely the future and I bet' it'll be synthetic and not leather and will last a lifetime.
but would the players do between shots? :LOL:
 
skor said:
I understand why Master still produce this chalk and so other cheap brands, pool clubs and bars won't buy crates of Taom or other premium chalk...
But I don't understand why they don't put out their own premium chalk to stay relevant. It doesn't matter what master did in the past, it's what they today and tomorrow.
Click to expand...
Exactly! I wish Tweeten would put out a clean modern chalk. If they had a made in Chicago clean chalk - firmer texture like Taom and closer to Triangle than Master would be my hope- I’d be all over it at the right price point. $5 a cube would be great, but I would love to get a box of a dozen for a $100 bill. This would balance, for me at least, the price with a desire to have a bunch on hand. Two or three cubes for the home table, chalk in my case etc….

Please, Tweeten….
 
sjm said:
Master Chalk causes more skids than premium chalk and this is common knowledge. I've never heard anyone suggest otherwise, but you've measured the extent to which it is true and under what conditions, giving form to the matter. Well done. Great video!

I still think the biggest takeaway from this incident is in the area of sportsmanship and general propriety. Darren's outburst was way out of bounds, and to go public with a negative rant about the product of a company that has supported pool for decades is just plain wrong. Equipment can and does become outdated. If the players are of one mind with respect to the unsuitability of a product or piece of equipment in the pro game, they can petition the event producers, who would have to assess the advisability of disallowing it in their events.

Pro players who saw this occurrence live or on video should be just as concerned about how bad a look this is for pro pool as they are about the already widely accepted fact that there are more skids with Master chalk, to which you have given great form and clarity.

PS I would extend the definition of cling to include any foreign substance, not just chalk. Grady Matthews used to take note of how players whose hands were not clean or who had been handling things like food or drinks can get foreign substances on the balls. There's a reason that only referees should be touching the balls in the biggest spots in top pro competition.
Click to expand...

Thanks, Stu.

As always, well stated with good added perspective.
 
dr_dave said:
Thanks, Stu.

As always, well stated with good added perspective.
Click to expand...
Let's add that that we've been talking about unintended doctoring of the cue ball, but as we saw with "Waxgate" at the 2025 World 9ball, it is widely alleged that some put foreign substances on it intentionally. In a match having a referee, players should not be permitted to handle the balls at all other than moving the cue ball around in the kitchen prior to the break. This is not current practice, especially between racks when players routinely help with emptying the pockets prior to the rerack.

It would be difficult to argue that minimization of skids has a lot of priority with either event producers or referees.
 
Last edited:
What i find funny about Chalkgate is both players are playing the same table with the same conditions If one pocket is 1/8" too small or the table is out of level towards a certain pocket. The playing field is equal and both player will have to play in the same conditions.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top