Does your Fargo Rate get "bound" to the company you keep?

[DieselPete]

This is something of a question that is equal parts basic math (Fargo-math, I suppose) meeting the reality that in nine ball, we all lose games. Except for the best players on the planet, we just can't win endless consecutive games, even against weaker opponents.

So, the question basically is, do you think that your Fargo rate gets bound, or gets sticky, to the level of opponents you regularly play? (A weekly league is the example I would use). In a room full of 450-510 league players, there are a few 550-610 players that can't seem to move up, and I suspect it is partially because Fargo gives them very little credit for beating up on the other league players, but docks them a fair amount when they lose games to the weaker players, and they seem stuck by the company they keep.

If those same players were always playing against 600+ players, it seems there would be more room for upside for winning, and less punishment for losing.

The obvious response would be that they can increase their Fargo rate by clobbering the 450-510 players, every week, week after week, without blemish. But in nine ball that is pretty tough to do.

So, do you think your Fargo rate reflects the company you keep?

 

[garczar]

This is something of a question that is equal parts basic math (Fargo-math, I suppose) meeting the reality that in nine ball, we all lose games. Except for the best players on the planet, we just can't win endless consecutive games, even against weaker opponents.

So, the question basically is, do you think that your Fargo rate gets bound, or gets sticky, to the level of opponents you regularly play? (A weekly league is the example I would use). In a room full of 450-510 league players, there are a few 550-610 players that can't seem to move up, and I suspect it is partially because Fargo gives them very little credit for beating up on the other league players, but docks them a fair amount when they lose games to the weaker players, and they seem stuck by the company they keep.

If those same players were always playing against 600+ players, it seems there would be more room for upside for winning, and less punishment for losing.

The obvious response would be that they can increase their Fargo rate by clobbering the 450-510 players, every week, week after week, without blemish. But in nine ball that is pretty tough to do.

So, do you think your Fargo rate reflects the company you keep?

If you play the same bunch every week your FR isn't going to do much unless you get better and start winning all the time.Or the opposite of course. Also, your FR isn't affected by just who you play but also who your opponents play. Fargo gives credit where its due, you beat better players you go up more. Beating hacks all the time will help but not near as much.

 

[Rocket354]

If you are, say, 100 points above your opponents, then you should be beating them at a 2:1 clip. So if you are winning sets 10-5 or so on average, then that could be considered beating up on them...but also your Fargo rating wouldn't budge. You'd have to beat them even better to move up.

That might sound difficult, but would it be any easier to start outrunning your expectation against guys 100 points above your skill level?

 

[Oikawa]

So, the question basically is, do you think that your Fargo rate gets bound, or gets sticky, to the level of opponents you regularly play?

From the math perspective: No. Fargo rating is, at its core, just a number derived from how well a particular player plays relative to others. Whether those others are close or far from someone's own rating, the math doesn't care, and is made such that in the long run, you'd gravitate towards your real skill no matter which level of opponents you play.

Fargo is based on the fact that a 100 point difference means the higher rated one will win 2 frames for every 1 frame won by the lower rated one. 200 gap -> 4/1, 300 gap -> 8/1 and so on.

From a psychological perspective: Yes, there are factors (that have nothing to do with the Fargo math) that make players more likely to end up around same skill level as those they regularly play with.

 

[dendweller]

This is something of a question that is equal parts basic math (Fargo-math, I suppose) meeting the reality that in nine ball, we all lose games. Except for the best players on the planet, we just can't win endless consecutive games, even against weaker opponents.

So, the question basically is, do you think that your Fargo rate gets bound, or gets sticky, to the level of opponents you regularly play? (A weekly league is the example I would use). In a room full of 450-510 league players, there are a few 550-610 players that can't seem to move up, and I suspect it is partially because Fargo gives them very little credit for beating up on the other league players, but docks them a fair amount when they lose games to the weaker players, and they seem stuck by the company they keep.

If those same players were always playing against 600+ players, it seems there would be more room for upside for winning, and less punishment for losing.

The obvious response would be that they can increase their Fargo rate by clobbering the 450-510 players, every week, week after week, without blemish. But in nine ball that is pretty tough to do.

So, do you think your Fargo rate reflects the company you keep?

I think it does from the point of view that if you play the same 5 people a lot and one of them moves up and starts beating better players you could take 2 years off and your's would continue to rise along with their's.

 

[straightline]

Handicap metrics are bound to be regional. Say you're a Middle Generican 500. You go to the Philippines and play their legit, Fargo extruded 400s. How many piso do you owe?

 

[Jaden]

This is something of a question that is equal parts basic math (Fargo-math, I suppose) meeting the reality that in nine ball, we all lose games. Except for the best players on the planet, we just can't win endless consecutive games, even against weaker opponents.

So, the question basically is, do you think that your Fargo rate gets bound, or gets sticky, to the level of opponents you regularly play? (A weekly league is the example I would use). In a room full of 450-510 league players, there are a few 550-610 players that can't seem to move up, and I suspect it is partially because Fargo gives them very little credit for beating up on the other league players, but docks them a fair amount when they lose games to the weaker players, and they seem stuck by the company they keep.

If those same players were always playing against 600+ players, it seems there would be more room for upside for winning, and less punishment for losing.

The obvious response would be that they can increase their Fargo rate by clobbering the 450-510 players, every week, week after week, without blemish. But in nine ball that is pretty tough to do.

So, do you think your Fargo rate reflects the company you keep?

It's even worse when the only regular tournaments around are chip tournaments, you lose a game to a really weak player because they fluke in the 9 and you don't get a chance to blow them out 6-1 and go up. Or you play another strong player and they bnr and you don't get the opportunity to give it back to them.

Of course you can do the same, but then it's not about ability it's about luck. That's not even counting handicapped tournaments where the higher rated player is always at a disadvantage, since the player that only needs 2 games to your 6 is just as likely to get them early as late and what should be a 6-2 or 5-1 finish ends up a 2-1, of 2-3, or 2-0 severely affecting your rate.

Don't bring these up to Mike though, he'll deny they have an effect and will deny that players sandbag, or that it's even possible.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... From a psychological perspective: Yes, there are factors (that have nothing to do with the Fargo math) that make players more likely to end up around same skill level as those they regularly play with.

Is it that they don't want to be perceived as different from the rest of the group? Does that make them let up on weaker players?

Another factor is that if you're surrounded by turkeys, it's hard to learn how to fly like an eagle, but that represents a real lack of skill development. It's not a quirky suppression of your real FargoRate.

 

[HawaiianEye]

Just try your best to win every game no matter who you are playing, what game you are playing, or what type of setting you are playing in.

Play an APA-3 the same way you would SVB.

Don't give anyone any breathing room.

Don't worry what your rating is.