Yes, there it is. I was focusing on Section 6, which addresses Maximum Throw, and the demonstration and discussion there does not include anything about adding spin and thereby causing even more throw.
Top 10 Things You Need to Know about THROW
- Thread starter dr_dave
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Yes, there it is. I was focusing on Section 6, which addresses Maximum Throw, and the demonstration and discussion there does not include anything about adding spin and thereby causing even more throw.
I'm glad we got that worked out. If you watch both videos in their entirety, you will see that they cover all of the important throw effects. All of the rest of the lesser important throw effects are summarized with supporting resources here:
all squirt, swerve, and throw effects known to man (and woman)
Regards,
Dave
Just had a chance to watch it this cool Saturday morning. I will definitely use this instruction for my lower players on the team. I dont think it's too advanced to understand, it just takes more advancement to accomplish.
Thank you .
Thank you .
Dr. Dave make sense out of stuff, simple & easy to understand........No Need to say "SPLAIN that".
Thanks!Dr. Dave make sense out of stuff, simple & easy to understand........No Need to say "SPLAIN that".
Best regards,
Dave
Don't know why views are down, but I really appreciate your efforts. Thanks a bunch and do please keep it up. I'll support you by purchasing your videos when I get my table set up, hopefully around June.
Best,
JL
Dr. Dave, thank you for putting these together and sharing them with the forums. I'm no stranger to throw having grown up reading Byrne's books, playing straight pool where reading the rack is a critical skill, and having played a lot of games. Yet I had a hunch I'd learn a few things and you didn't let me down!
There were three things that were really new to me. Two of them I may have had a feel for, but didn't know it in concrete terms and wouldn't have much confidence in game play. Those things are:
1) Rolling ball equates to less throw than a stun. Byrne taught that lower speeds resulted in maximum throw. It is easier to produce lower speeds with a rolling ball than having to stun the ball (unless the cue ball is very close of course) so often I would roll the ball when trying to generate maximum throw. I think I had an intuitive feel that a stun shot would produce more throw as I'd often use a soft stun when shooting close to the object ball, but I didn't realize how big of a difference it was.
One question on this. With more distance between the cue ball and the object ball it requires more speed to maintain a sliding cue ball with a below center hit. Is there a point at which the added speed to the shot diminishes the throw enough to where the net result is less throw than a softer speed rolling ball? I'm looking for a distance. Obviously it depends on both cloth condition and my ability to strike below center for the softest possible stun. But for you, on your table. Is there a number of feet away from the object ball at which your maximum effective throw would be generated by a rolling ball, because to stun from 7' away (for example) would require such a hard hit it would reduce the throw by more than the soft rolling ball?
2) The 3/8 inch rule, cut angle cancels CIT. Very interesting. I saw this in another of your videos but it is a cool property of the pool universe. Not sure how often this would come up or how confident I'd be not shooting the first ball straight into the second in a game situation. However if I practice it 50 times I might feel more confident, and if the situation demands it then you have to be prepared.
3) The line of centers back cut (video 2, 3:40 or so). This was mind blowing to me. I have been in this spot a million times, balls lined up dead for the pocket, cue ball coming from a thin angle, thin cutting it to try to avoid throwing it off line. I have always been so worried about making a clean thin hit to avoid throwing it the wrong way that it never occurred to me I could be over-cutting the combination by having CIT on the first ball put SIT on the second!
I will have to play with both of those shots. I don't play as much straight pool these days but regionally in my area there is a lot of bar table 8 ball. Seems like these twisty ticky little shots come up all of the time, along with forcing caroms, reading break outs, playing shape off of combinations, all things that require a good understanding of pool principles.
Thank you again Dave!
PS- a fourth thing, spinning the ball less generates more throw, I didn't learn from this video. I learned it from one of your PRIOR videos
There were three things that were really new to me. Two of them I may have had a feel for, but didn't know it in concrete terms and wouldn't have much confidence in game play. Those things are:
1) Rolling ball equates to less throw than a stun. Byrne taught that lower speeds resulted in maximum throw. It is easier to produce lower speeds with a rolling ball than having to stun the ball (unless the cue ball is very close of course) so often I would roll the ball when trying to generate maximum throw. I think I had an intuitive feel that a stun shot would produce more throw as I'd often use a soft stun when shooting close to the object ball, but I didn't realize how big of a difference it was.
One question on this. With more distance between the cue ball and the object ball it requires more speed to maintain a sliding cue ball with a below center hit. Is there a point at which the added speed to the shot diminishes the throw enough to where the net result is less throw than a softer speed rolling ball? I'm looking for a distance. Obviously it depends on both cloth condition and my ability to strike below center for the softest possible stun. But for you, on your table. Is there a number of feet away from the object ball at which your maximum effective throw would be generated by a rolling ball, because to stun from 7' away (for example) would require such a hard hit it would reduce the throw by more than the soft rolling ball?
2) The 3/8 inch rule, cut angle cancels CIT. Very interesting. I saw this in another of your videos but it is a cool property of the pool universe. Not sure how often this would come up or how confident I'd be not shooting the first ball straight into the second in a game situation. However if I practice it 50 times I might feel more confident, and if the situation demands it then you have to be prepared.
3) The line of centers back cut (video 2, 3:40 or so). This was mind blowing to me. I have been in this spot a million times, balls lined up dead for the pocket, cue ball coming from a thin angle, thin cutting it to try to avoid throwing it off line. I have always been so worried about making a clean thin hit to avoid throwing it the wrong way that it never occurred to me I could be over-cutting the combination by having CIT on the first ball put SIT on the second!
I will have to play with both of those shots. I don't play as much straight pool these days but regionally in my area there is a lot of bar table 8 ball. Seems like these twisty ticky little shots come up all of the time, along with forcing caroms, reading break outs, playing shape off of combinations, all things that require a good understanding of pool principles.
Thank you again Dave!
PS- a fourth thing, spinning the ball less generates more throw, I didn't learn from this video. I learned it from one of your PRIOR videos
Dr. Dave, thank you for putting these together and sharing them with the forums. I'm no stranger to throw having grown up reading Byrne's books, playing straight pool where reading the rack is a critical skill, and having played a lot of games. Yet I had a hunch I'd learn a few things and you didn't let me down!
There were three things that were really new to me. Two of them I may have had a feel for, but didn't know it in concrete terms and wouldn't have much confidence in game play. Those things are:
1) Rolling ball equates to less throw than a stun. Byrne taught that lower speeds resulted in maximum throw. It is easier to produce lower speeds with a rolling ball than having to stun the ball (unless the cue ball is very close of course) so often I would roll the ball when trying to generate maximum throw. I think I had an intuitive feel that a stun shot would produce more throw as I'd often use a soft stun when shooting close to the object ball, but I didn't realize how big of a difference it was.
One question on this. With more distance between the cue ball and the object ball it requires more speed to maintain a sliding cue ball with a below center hit. Is there a point at which the added speed to the shot diminishes the throw enough to where the net result is less throw than a softer speed rolling ball? I'm looking for a distance. Obviously it depends on both cloth condition and my ability to strike below center for the softest possible stun. But for you, on your table. Is there a number of feet away from the object ball at which your maximum effective throw would be generated by a rolling ball, because to stun from 7' away (for example) would require such a hard hit it would reduce the throw by more than the soft rolling ball?
2) The 3/8 inch rule, cut angle cancels CIT. Very interesting. I saw this in another of your videos but it is a cool property of the pool universe. Not sure how often this would come up or how confident I'd be not shooting the first ball straight into the second in a game situation. However if I practice it 50 times I might feel more confident, and if the situation demands it then you have to be prepared.
3) The line of centers back cut (video 2, 3:40 or so). This was mind blowing to me. I have been in this spot a million times, balls lined up dead for the pocket, cue ball coming from a thin angle, thin cutting it to try to avoid throwing it off line. I have always been so worried about making a clean thin hit to avoid throwing it the wrong way that it never occurred to me I could be over-cutting the combination by having CIT on the first ball put SIT on the second!
I will have to play with both of those shots. I don't play as much straight pool these days but regionally in my area there is a lot of bar table 8 ball. Seems like these twisty ticky little shots come up all of the time, along with forcing caroms, reading break outs, playing shape off of combinations, all things that require a good understanding of pool principles.
Thank you again Dave!
PS- a fourth thing, spinning the ball less generates more throw, I didn't learn from this video. I learned it from one of your PRIOR videos
Yes, Byrne’s Standard Book of Pool and Billiards was my first source (I would say only source, by Ray Martin’s 99 Shots was also an instruction source for me).
Interestingly, Byrne minimized the existence of squirt, which left me, for years, of the mind that throw was basically a SIT thing. I also didn’t understand, intellectually, the need for aim compensation, especially as the shots get longer, on account of squirt.
On page 43 (“Allowing for the curve”), he wrote: “On a very hard stroke the cue ball has no time to curve at all - in fact, it may “squirt” in the opposite direction (see page 264). On page 264 (“Curve versus ‘squirt’”), he talks about squirt being a consideration when playing “length-of-the-table shots that must be struck hard with maximum English.” He also says, talking about squirt, “Many players are unaware of it . . . it is, admittedly, seldom a significant factor.”
Dr. Dave - On the topic of combining CIT and SIT that I’ve been beating to death at (not with) you today, whether they are “additive,” and how to generate maximum throw, my paging back through Byrne’s book just now led me to this, in his discussion of push shots (page 88): “What is the maximum possible throw? About a foot over the length of the table, using a combination of directional throw and English throw.”
Excellent videos....wish I saw this 60 years ago.
Thanks JL. I think the typical YouTube viewer looking for instructional pool videos wants something much more basic. And, being realistic, if they can't aim well and don't have a good stroke, knowing the intricacies of throw will not help them very much.
Regards,
Dave
Tin Man,
I will respond to your posts in parts. Here's the first part.
Catch you later,
Dave
I will respond to your posts in parts. Here's the first part.
I'm glad to hear it. I think the intricacies of throw are by far the most interesting physics effects in pool. So many of the throw effects are "non-intuitive."
Catch you later,
Dave
The stun requires more control, especially at slow speed, especially if the CB is no close to the OB, but the difference is real and large, especially close to a 1/2-ball hit and thinner.
Excellent point. When I get some time, I will do a thorough analysis to figure out the optimal tip contact height and shot speed for every CB-OB distance and cut angle. I agree that for a 1/2-ball hit at short distance, the answer is obviously a slow stun shot; and at long distance, the answer is obviously a slow roll shot (or a drag shot to limit table roll off). It will be interesting to see what the analysis says about everything in between.
Regards,
Dave
Small gap combos come up more than some people might think. When I face one, I always want to know if the gap is smaller or larger than 3/8" (1/6 of a ball's diameter) so I will know whether or not I can cut or throw the ball over a reasonable range of angles. And if it is really close to the magical 3/8" size, I want to know that too so I will know that attempts to cut or throw the ball will mostly be futile.
Regards,
Dave
Agreed. Luckily, the effect isn't that large. But it definitely is important for long frozen-combo shots like the examples in my second video.
Regards,
Dave
You're welcome. Thank you for watching and for responding with such well-thought-out comments and questions. I appreciate it.
Best regards,
Dave
Yeah. I'm sure I've mentioned this many times in other videos. It is definitely one of those non-intuitive effects. One would think more spin gives more throw, but the physics (and real-life pool balls) tell a different story. For those interested, I explain this effect on the throw speed effects resource page.PS- a fourth thing, spinning the ball less generates more throw, I didn't learn from this video. I learned it from one of your PRIOR videos
Catch you later,
Dave
You very nearly covered every aspect and application of throw, but I have one that I only recently discovered. It is a special case of the near-90 cut shot you showed in part 2 that is played with "excess" or what I call "retrograde" outside spin.
Sometimes the cue ball ends up very nearly touching the object ball and they are not quite pointed to the pocket as in the diagram.
If double hits were allowed, you could just shoot straight at the ball with left. Or, play a fullish cut on the right side of the ball to throw it to the right.
When that close to the ball a very thin hit is condoned by the rules even though the tip may still be on the cue ball when the cue ball hits the object ball.
My solution is to play thin as shown with extreme left to throw the object ball to the right. The degree of throw is exaggerated in the diagram unless by some miracle there is chalk at the contact point.
You do have to hit the shot pretty hard, but that speed does not reduce the throw much because the actual retrograde surface motion is pretty slow.
![CropperCapture[500].png](https://forums.azbilliards.com/data/attachments/402/402463-435e4a2108a23c3b0f244ca9403cc291.jpg "CropperCapture[500].png")
Sometimes the cue ball ends up very nearly touching the object ball and they are not quite pointed to the pocket as in the diagram.
If double hits were allowed, you could just shoot straight at the ball with left. Or, play a fullish cut on the right side of the ball to throw it to the right.
When that close to the ball a very thin hit is condoned by the rules even though the tip may still be on the cue ball when the cue ball hits the object ball.
My solution is to play thin as shown with extreme left to throw the object ball to the right. The degree of throw is exaggerated in the diagram unless by some miracle there is chalk at the contact point.
You do have to hit the shot pretty hard, but that speed does not reduce the throw much because the actual retrograde surface motion is pretty slow.
Maximum possible throw is actually much, much larger if there is cling/skid/kick; but under typical clean conditions (with no chalk marks at the contact point), it is about 9" over the length of a 9' table (and about 12.7" over the diagonal of a table). Again, CIT and SIT do not add as separate factors as Byrne suggested. Even the great Byrne has things in his books that aren't quite true, strictly speaking (as is the case with a few things in my book also, which I sometimes wish I had written a little later, after I had more pool smarts and experience). But for small cut angles, adding a little inside spin definitely increases the amount of throw. Although, this amount is not larger than what is possible with a close-range, 1/2-ball-hit, soft stun shot with no sidespin (unless there is cling/skid/kick, in which case adding more cut angle or inside spin will increase the throw further). For more info, see the inside spin effects resource page.
Regards,
Dave
PS: As a good example of what cling/skid/kick can do to maximum throw, see the frozen-ball shot at the 1:28 point in my proposition shots video. It is definitely mind blowing what is possible when there is chalk at the contact point.