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Why is this shot not valid?
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precisepotting
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Why is this shot not valid? - 06-09-2017, 09:50 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8c3x8qSwnY&t=942s

At 4:12

Is it because the cue ball contact the object ball twice or is it because it is a scoop shot?

On another note: Is a scoop shot a foul shot? If it is, shouldn't it be ball in hand?

Last edited by precisepotting; 06-09-2017 at 09:53 PM. Reason: incomplete
  
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skip100
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06-09-2017, 09:55 PM

someone on youtube posted:

"the cue ball is in contact with the object twice. It's not a foul, but the pot is not valid."
  
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06-09-2017, 10:19 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by skip100 View Post
someone on youtube posted:

"the cue ball is in contact with the object twice. It's not a foul, but the pot is not valid."
Uhhh... So it is call all kisses? Or is it forbidden to contact the object ball with the cue ball twice? The latter rule would be really goofy.


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06-10-2017, 12:06 AM

From Chinese 8 Ball Rules posted by Lee Brett here.

Quote:
6. Designate the pockets
In the game with the rule of designate pockets, (designate the ball to hit, and which object ball to pot) player should tell the referee or opponent which object ball to hit and which pocket to pot. As for the process is insignificant such as how many times touching the cushion, or if touched any other balls during the process.
In the following condition that the player should call pocket, (1) if the first hitting ball is the planned pocketed object ball, and the object ball is pocketed with touching other balls or banking. (2) If the first hitting ball is not the planned pocketed ball, the player should designate the ball and call the pocket.
If the player fails to call pocket in the above two situation, the pocket is illegal, the opponent shall shoot or be judged as losing the rack (when hitting the 8 ball). For other situation, there is no need to call pocket. This rule also applied for the 8 ball (there is no necessary to call pocket if the 8 ball pocketed without involving above 2 situation)
So it appears that the double kiss put it in the category that must be called while obvious shots do not need to be called.
  
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M.G.
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06-10-2017, 01:38 AM

I'm still not sure about the explanations.
Most probably the ferrule contacted the cue ball which it is not allowed to and also scooping the CB is generally not allowed in pool.

Note that in Snooker a bouncing CB shot actually is legal as long as no OB is jumped over.
As such this shot would've been legal if only he'd hit a red...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHHU3wprTNA

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06-10-2017, 05:39 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by M.G. View Post
I'm still not sure about the explanations.
Most probably the ferrule contacted the cue ball which it is not allowed to and also scooping the CB is generally not allowed in pool.

Note that in Snooker a bouncing CB shot actually is legal as long as no OB is jumped over.
As such this shot would've been legal if only he'd hit a red...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHHU3wprTNA

Cheers,
M
The rule is a little hard to decipher due to translation. The match is with a referee and that referee will follow the rules exactly.

Quote:
......... the object ball is pocketed with touching other balls...............If the player fails to call pocket in the above two situation, the pocket is illegal, the opponent shall shoot..........
(there is no necessary to call pocket if the 8 ball pocketed without involving above 2 situation).
Clear as mud?
  
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06-10-2017, 08:55 PM

I understand Chinese. The commentator was confused for a moment and then said the cue ball contacted the object ball twice, hence pot is not counted. He hesitated and doesn't sound convincing. The YouTube comment came as a translation of the commentator.

In all 8 ball rules, I have only heard of call pocket, but not how the ball is potted (except in-house pub rules or between friends). I thought it could be due to scoop shot (which I thought is a foul shot when jumping over a ball)


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06-10-2017, 09:57 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by precisepotting View Post
I understand Chinese. The commentator was confused for a moment and then said the cue ball contacted the object ball twice, hence pot is not counted. He hesitated and doesn't sound convincing. The YouTube comment came as a translation of the commentator.

In all 8 ball rules, I have only heard of call pocket, but not how the ball is potted (except in-house pub rules or between friends). I thought it could be due to scoop shot (which I thought is a foul shot when jumping over a ball)
What started as an obvious shot not requiring the ball and pocket designation (which is all that ever has to be called), became a designation required shot by vertue of the second contact with the cue ball.

Quote:
:
......... the object ball is pocketed with touching other balls...............If the player fails to call pocket in the above two situation, the pocket is illegal, the opponent shall shoot..........
(there is no necessary to call pocket if the 8 ball pocketed without involving above 2 situation).
  
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06-11-2017, 02:52 AM

This shot would be perfectly legal in regular pool. You just need to call the object ball and the pocket, in this case very obvious, and only an intentional miscue is a foul.


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06-11-2017, 03:29 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregcantrall View Post
What started as an obvious shot not requiring the ball and pocket designation (which is all that ever has to be called), became a designation required shot by vertue of the second contact with the cue ball.
When is this going to be a legal pot? Who will call for a second contact to pot a ball??


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06-11-2017, 04:13 AM

Sounds as though its just a very stringent form of "call shot".
Every nuance of the balls journey to the pocket must be declared prior to the shot taking place.

It was not declared that the cue ball would hit the object ball more than once (or a specified
number of times) prior to the pocket... so it was just a missed shot, even if the ball went in.
Seems to be what is happening.

I played on one of these tables though.
It played like a 10 foot Gandy snooker table.

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06-11-2017, 05:18 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by precisepotting View Post
When is this going to be a legal pot? Who will call for a second contact to pot a ball??
She did not call the ball and pocket because it was obvious. All that she had to do was say "one ball side pocket". The details do not need to be called just the ball and pocket.
Quote:
6. Designate the pockets
In the game with the rule of designate pockets, (designate the ball to hit, and which object ball to pot) player should tell the referee or opponent which object ball to hit and which pocket to pot.
tAs for the process is insignificant such as how many times touching the cushion, or if touched any other balls during the process.In the following condition that the player should call pocket, (1) if the first hitting ball is the planned pocketed object ball, and the object ball is pocketed with touching other balls or banking. (2) If the first hitting ball is not the planned pocketed ball, the player should designate the ball and call the pocket.If the player fails to call pocket in the above two situation, the pocket is illegal, the opponent shall shoot or be judged as losing the rack (when hitting the 8 ball). For other situation, there is no need to call pocket. This rule also applied for the 8 ball (there is no necessary to call pocket if the ball pocketed without involving above 2 situation)]

Last edited by gregcantrall; 06-11-2017 at 05:45 AM.
  
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06-11-2017, 05:24 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lesh View Post
Sounds as though its just a very stringent form of "call shot".
Every nuance of the balls journey to the pocket must be declared prior to the shot taking place.
Wrong, you need to reread the rule.

Quote:
It was not declared that the cue ball would hit the object ball more than once (or a specified
number of times) prior to the pocket... so it was just a missed shot, even if the ball went in.
Seems to be what is happening.
.............
Lesh
Wrong, The ball and pocket were not declared at all. Perfectly legal as long as there is no incidental contact with any other ball. Then the ball and pocket must be designated.
  
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06-11-2017, 05:30 AM

I'm pretty sure Gareth Potts said in one of his you tube tutorials that there are some Chinese 8-Ball rule sets that are call shot meaning every cannon, carom, cushion etc. has to be called.
  
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06-11-2017, 06:00 AM

As the incoming player, you decide to call the shot or not.
(when calling you only need say the ball and pocket, not how)
If you decide not to call the shot because it is obvious, you must play it 'straight in'.
If you play it in off other balls, or off cushions not touching the pocket, or hit it CB twice, it is end of visit.
Only 'straight in' shots are deemed to be obvious and therefore don't need to be called.

In this instance, no pocket was called. Ball was not potted 'straight in' so therefore end of visit.
  
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