Toi Observation

obrien714 said:

LAst night i started on a new pool team with a group of guys i have only played against 1 time in league. They are all strong shooters. What i noticed was the errors they were making by spinning the cue ball and over running their position target. The simple 1 rail patterns TOI brings into play eliminate so may of these errors i used to be guilty of.

MAny of these shots are the shallow angle cuts that TOI lets the cue ball almost float back to the middle of the table one rail. They are hitting them all with outside spin going 2 to 3 rails and over running their mark.

The another thing i noticed was the amounts of scratches they encountered that i seem to have eliminated by no letting the cue ball run with spin.
Some of you will get this and some won't, my point is the simpler path of the cue ball with TOI eliminates alot of mistakes.

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What obrien said in blue. ^^^

Perhaps the reason they were scratching so much was because they didn't have a clue where the CB was going to go. A lot of players guess when it comes to 2, 3, 4 and 5 rail positional routes. So more often than not they will find a pocket. If you elect to go 1 rail instead of several, you won't scratch nearly as often, that's obvious. But opting for 1 rail has its down side. You will find yourself crossing balls more often, getting the wrong side of balls, coming up short or long. By going multiple rails you can manipulate the CB much more, and if you know your CB routes then manipulate the CB to travel on an angle out of a rail to always travel along the correct side of the next ball. Watching the pros play 9 ball they choose to go multiple rails all the time when the 1 rail shot is an option. They do this for the reasons stated above. My point is not to take anything away from TOI, but rather to open peoples eyes that multi rail positional shots make the game easier, so learn a system for them (of which there are many) and have more options in your arsenal when at the table.

Yeah, I notice how the Professionals, who supposedly use TOI, never go 2 or more rails for position.

I'm in no way saying that TOI doesn't work, that it doesn't have a place. But to think it is the do all, end all is simply absurd.

Never mind.
Even when you agree, you disagree.

TOI requires"Inside Training" so that the added dimension of angles can be learned.

You are correct in your observations, and have obviously done the TOI training.

TOI teaches how to hit the same type shot every time. We all have to go through the "Inside Training" so that the added dimension of angles can be learned (so they become consciously recognized). It's easy to detect those that haven't went through the TOI training because their points are usually not valid.

After the "TOI Training" we are free to develop our own style of play.... this may be to spin the ball more, however, you will have a new found level of control that wasn't there before {the TOI training}. This is because our base (foundation) of natural angles is established and can be used as a reference to change the path of the cue ball (if needed).

TOI teaches us how to play subconsciously, and develop feel, and touch for the table, the cue ball and the pocket in a way that is natural....players might even say "supernatural".

"Natural in a super way" simply because the angles generated with TOI seem to conform to the natural model of the subconscious. Spinning the cue ball creates "unnatural" angles and they range depending on how much spin is applied. TOI angles have a very limited range since there's very little spin required.

obrien714 said:

LAst night i started on a new pool team with a group of guys i have only played against 1 time in league. They are all strong shooters. What i noticed was the errors they were making by spinning the cue ball and over running their position target. The simple 1 rail patterns TOI brings into play eliminate so may of these errors i used to be guilty of.

MAny of these shots are the shallow angle cuts that TOI lets the cue ball almost float back to the middle of the table one rail. They are hitting them all with outside spin going 2 to 3 rails and over running their mark.

The another thing i noticed was the amounts of scratches they encountered that i seem to have eliminated by no letting the cue ball run with spin.
Some of you will get this and some wont, my point is the simpler path of the cue ball with TOI eliminates alot of mistakes.

Cheers

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I've not once seen any professional on any cue sport use TOI as the base of their entire game and set up. Sure I've seen players use inside, but that's because they are using inside, not a touch, smidge, lick or tad. With regards to TOI creating a more natural angle to what people can relate to...i don't buy it. Adding running English is what makes the angle more natural and what players can relate to. All kicking systems use plain ball or running English, so it makes sense to use plain ball or running English to figure out where the CB is going off a rail. Once you know this you can then use check side or running side to further alter the path.

Perhaps I'm missing something. I may not be in the zone enough for this, but its ok....my tennis book is coming in the mail any day now so perhaps once I read it something may click.

JoeyInCali said:

I don't think they use TOI when they go 3 rails end rail to end rail.
They use TOO most of the time .

Jim Rempe and Sigel both advocate TOO to minimize skids.
Busti uses TOO when shooting at the money ball often.


TOI does work well in killing the cueball when using a one rail to drift for shape on the next ball.

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You apparently missed the entire point of my post. Nowhere did I state or even imply they use TOI to go multiple rails. My point was just the opposite and was directed towards the OP who at least implied that TOI was the do all, end all.

the 'Touch of Inside' has been proven effective in all three of these areas

Yes, there are exceptions that require english and that's what many people get side tracked on.....the point of TOI is the give a more effective frame of reference that not only gives more natural angles, also allows the player to use a consistent shot speed, cue ball target (slightly inside) and aiming technique (using Center or Edge).

Using the same type of shot all the time is strong and I've still not played anyone that has overcome it over a long session. It's not difficult to use any type system of play to win races to 11.....however, to win over a 10-20 hour period it takes more than a "good system"......it takes something that doesn't break down under pressure, stress or fatigue.....the 'Touch of Inside' has been proven effective in all three of these areas. 'The TOI Game is the Teacher'

obrien714 said:

I undertand there are times to go 3 or 4 rails. I was saying the easier path is sometimes the simple 1 rail and out TOI provides. It also keeps you out of trouble more.

I never said it was the end all system. I use spin on rare occasions.

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you will see the "floating" reaction of the cue ball after contact.

You wouldn't be able to tell just by looking....although you will see the "floating" reaction of the cue ball after contact.

I used the TOI Technique in thousands of matches and people could tell I was doing something different (by the reaction of the cue ball after contact), however, the only ones that understood were the other "Road Players" who used a similar technique.

The TOI system won't be ideal for "tournament conditions" with new cloth, easy pockets, and slick conditions.....TOI is most effective in regular pool room conditions when the cloth is more than a month old and isn't slick and easy.

Pidge said:

I've not once seen any professional on any cue sport use TOI as the base of their entire game and set up. Sure I've seen players use inside, but that's because they are using inside, not a touch, smidge, lick or tad. With regards to TOI creating a more natural angle to what people can relate to...i don't buy it. Adding running English is what makes the angle more natural and what players can relate to. All kicking systems use plain ball or running English, so it makes sense to use plain ball or running English to figure out where the CB is going off a rail. Once you know this you can then use check side or running side to further alter the path.

Perhaps I'm missing something. I may not be in the zone enough for this, but its ok....my tennis book is coming in the mail any day now so perhaps once I read it something may click.

Click to expand...

CJ Wiley said:

You wouldn't be able to tell just by looking....although you will see the "floating" reaction of the cue ball after contact.

I used the TOI Technique in thousands of matches and people could tell I was doing something different (by the reaction of the cue ball after contact), however, the only ones that understood were the other "Road Players" who used a similar technique.

The TOI system won't be ideal for "tournament conditions" with new cloth, easy pockets, and slick conditions.....TOI is most effective in regular pool room conditions when the cloth is more than a month old and isn't slick and easy.

Click to expand...

Pidge. Just call it your NEW CENTER BALL. TOI works great.

Thanks for pointing me in a good direction CJ.

John

CJ Wiley said:

You wouldn't be able to tell just by looking....although you will see the "floating" reaction of the cue ball after contact.

I used the TOI Technique in thousands of matches and people could tell I was doing something different (by the reaction of the cue ball after contact), however, the only ones that understood were the other "Road Players" who used a similar technique.

The TOI system won't be ideal for "tournament conditions" with new cloth, easy pockets, and slick conditions.....TOI is most effective in regular pool room conditions when the cloth is more than a month old and isn't slick and easy.

Click to expand...

What!!!!

Your just kidding.....right???

CJ Wiley said:

You wouldn't be able to tell just by looking....although you will see the "floating" reaction of the cue ball after contact.

I used the TOI Technique in thousands of matches and people could tell I was doing something different (by the reaction of the cue ball after contact), however, the only ones that understood were the other "Road Players" who used a similar technique.

The TOI system won't be ideal for "tournament conditions" with new cloth, easy pockets, and slick conditions.....TOI is most effective in regular pool room conditions when the cloth is more than a month old and isn't slick and easy.

Click to expand...

I agree. You don't need a stroke to move the cue ball with the new cloth. Speed kills and whitey slides around too much.

It doesn't get any better than a ring game on a Valley bar table with worn out cloth and rails...:thumbup:

Best,
Mike

One Pocket John said:

Pidge. Just call it your NEW CENTER BALL. TOI works great.

Thanks for pointing me in a good direction CJ.

John

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noooooo, please tell me you didn't drink the punch...... noooooooooo

.'The Game is 20/20' (and the Teacher)

Thanks, John, it was my pleasure, glad to be able to help.

After talking to an eye specialist I have more of an idea why the TOI is so effective.....the eyes and visual perception is very interesting in pool.....here in the near future I'll share what I've found out in the last couple of weeks....'The Game is 20/20' (and the Teacher)

One Pocket John said:

Pidge. Just call it your NEW CENTER BALL. TOI works great.

Thanks for pointing me in a good direction CJ.

John

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prewarhero said:

noooooo, please tell me you didn't drink the punch...... noooooooooo

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It's the Ocular Vision(TM) punch by Geno Enterprises. It's full of glue-teen and bite-a-min hay for the eyes.

-Sean <-- glue-teen intolerant

even if it was a matter of life and death

The fact is "some" just can't understand the deepest levels of pool, even if it was a matter of life and death.

The key is to put old knowledge "on the shelf," so the new has room to operate, develop, and grow into new, more effective knowledge.

Ralph Kramden said:

What obrien said in blue. ^^^

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