Billiard Cue Construction

Ghosst said:

I don't know if this is for every cuemaker or not, but having watched a bit of 3-cushion lately I notice more butterfly points in cue construction than regular splices. Is this a trend that comes from where the players live (more European and Asian) or are there differences in strength that come from this?

I wonder because during the time I spent living in Europe, I did see a lot of butterfly points in snooker cues as well.

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Billiard players through out history have preferred butterfly constructed cues as they like the stiffer hit they impart or so I've been told.

Dick

Butterflies do tend to stiffen up the hit. So carom players like them and have used them for decades. They are now becoming popular in pool cues also.

As a bit of trivia, "butterfly" spliced cues used to be known as Vignaux style, and "sharp pointed" cues used to be known as Berger style. These were the last names of two great players of the time who used the respectively styled cues.

And for your bonus trivia point, ferrules used to be called "points." :smile-square:

Mr Hoppe said:

As a bit of trivia, "butterfly" spliced cues used to be known as Vignaux style, and "sharp pointed" cues used to be known as Berger style. These were the last names of two great players of the time who used the respectively styled cues.

And for your bonus trivia point, ferrules used to be called "points." :smile-square:

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I still hear European players refer to ferrules as points. So I knew that one, but was clueless on the other two points. Thanks for sharing.

Ghosst said:

Awesome, thanks for the info!

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The idea that butterfly "points" stiffen the hit of a cue is no more valid
than the idea that a full splice is superior to a half splice or a no-splice.
Truth is, some are, some aren't - it's about more than just the splice.

FWIW - the "butterfly" cues that you are reffering to are not actually
butterfly SPLICED cues like the Vignaux Mr H mentioned, but are FLAME
lamminated - like the cues Diekman made<once upon a time>

IMHO - it is mostly due to tradition. There is a similar attitude in the
Brits and their Snooker cues - they prefer a definite "style" - and, sadly,
both camps insist on having that dorky circular inset
at the bottom of the butt.

Dale<who freely admits he cares way too much about splice terminology>

pdcue said:

The idea that butterfly "points" stiffen the hit of a cue is no more valid
than the idea that a full splice is superior to a half splice or a no-splice.
Truth is, some are, some aren't - it's about more than just the splice.

FWIW - the "butterfly" cues that you are reffering to are not actually
butterfly SPLICED cues like the Vignaux Mr H mentioned, but are FLAME
lamminated - like the cues Diekman made<once upon a time>

IMHO - it is mostly due to tradition. There is a similar attitude in the
Brits and their Snooker cues - they prefer a definite "style" - and, sadly,
both camps insist on having that dorky circular inset
at the bottom of the butt.

Dale<who freely admits he cares way too much about splice terminology>

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Adding glue surfaces to almost the full length of two sides of maple with harder woods, and then cutting it again and putting similar things to the other two sides does in my opinion stiffen up the butt. You are one of the first cuemakers I have heard deny that to be true, if that is the type of butterflies you are talking about. That is the type Dieckman was talking about over 20 years ago when he put out the info that they were stiffer than most pool cues.
I am not saying that an A-Joint cannot stiffen up the cue also, because it can.
As far as full-splice being better than half splice, I agree that may not be the case. Better can mean better hit or stronger or whatever. But if we just talk about strength the full splice does seem to be the stronger method. I conclude that because I have seen very few full splices broken, but have seen more A-joints than I can count that were broken with the v-groove points split out.
Opinions and tastes vary drastically among our population and everyone is entitled to theirs, and the above is just that, my opinions.

cueman said:

Adding glue surfaces to almost the full length of two sides of maple with harder woods, and then cutting it again and putting similar things to the other two sides does in my opinion stiffen up the butt. You are one of the first cuemakers I have heard deny that to be true, if that is the type of butterflies you are talking about. That is the type Dieckman was talking about over 20 years ago when he put out the info that they were stiffer than most pool cues.
I am not saying that an A-Joint cannot stiffen up the cue also, because it can.
As far as full-splice being better than half splice, I agree that may not be the case. Better can mean better hit or stronger or whatever. But if we just talk about strength the full splice does seem to be the stronger method. I conclude that because I have seen very few full splices broken, but have seen more A-joints than I can count that were broken with the v-groove points split out.
Opinions and tastes vary drastically among our population and everyone is entitled to theirs, and the above is just that, my opinions.

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Conceptual...

Your argument assumes that one is comparing one specific butterflyed butt
to another similar, non-butterflyed butt.
My observation was about any random butterfly vs any random
non-butterfly.

Diekman says a lot of things.

Dale

pdcue said:

Conceptual...

Your argument assumes that one is comparing one specific butterflyed butt
to another similar, non-butterflyed butt.
My observation was about any random butterfly vs any random
non-butterfly.

Diekman says a lot of things.

Dale

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Granted. But when Dennis spread that a couple of decades ago the butterflies I described were the common style (random) and they normally were stiffer than the average (random) pool cue made with other construction methods.

Ghosst said:

This is what I'm referring to:

And not:

http://www.pooldawg.com/images/cache/ril08_lg0x0-15863.jpg

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The butterflies you are showing in the cue with the wrap would not make the cue much stiffer than any other cue. Of course there could be something going on under the wrap that I cannot see that would increase stiffness. The other cue blanks with the more unusual butterflies would probably not stiffen up the cue much either. They would probably accomplish about the same thing as regular v-groove point blanks as far as the hit goes. Just slighty stiffer, but not much more. Just look at the percentages of wood in those forearms and they will probably hit like the percentage of the type of wood that is in the blank. More ebony equals stiffer, flatter feeling hit. More maple equals more lively hit.

cueman said:

Granted. But when Dennis spread that a couple of decades ago the butterflies I described were the common style (random) and they normally were stiffer than the average (random) pool cue made with other construction methods.

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But that is only because he thinks all games should be played with 3 cushion cues.

Before the flames start - he said that to me 30 years ago - and many
a 3C player has that same attitude. As did Ray Schuller, who told me
essientally the same thing at around the same time.

3C cues are by nature "stiffer" than most pool cues - but is not just
because they have flame construction.

Dale

cueman said:

The butterflies you are showing in the cue with the wrap would not make the cue much stiffer than any other cue. Of course there could be something going on under the wrap that I cannot see that would increase stiffness. The other cue blanks with the more unusual butterflies would probably not stiffen up the cue much either. They would probably accomplish about the same thing as regular v-groove point blanks as far as the hit goes. Just slighty stiffer, but not much more. Just look at the percentages of wood in those forearms and they will probably hit like the percentage of the type of wood that is in the blank. More ebony equals stiffer, flatter feeling hit. More maple equals more lively hit.

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"More ebony equals stiffer, flatter feeling hit."

This hasn't necessarily been my experience.

At this point, it is time to declare that you and I should agree that we disagree. I would, however, be interested in seeing some objective data.

Dale

Ghosst said:

This is what I'm referring to:




And not:

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The blanks in the second pic are indeed spliced - double spliced and more.
But they are not like what I see in the hands of packs of 3C players.
You do know Arnot threw away all his jigs and quit making butterfly
cues don't you?

The completed cue - no way to tell what is under the wrap, but I'll tap
dance out on a limb and guess the forearm is flames, like the butt
sleve - tho it could be a good 'conversion'.

dawg's pic is a snooker cue also laminated - but a whole different
kettle of fish.

Dale

Its compression resistance value parallel to the grain is the cause

pdcue said:

"More ebony equals stiffer, flatter feeling hit."

This hasn't necessarily been my experience.

At this point, it is time to declare that you and I should agree that we disagree. I would, however, be interested in seeing some objective data.

Dale

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Ebony is denser and has a greater compression resistance value as say a maple for example.

As the wave of energy from the hit passes through the cue woods with lower compression resistance the fibers slightly compress, then spring back to original position as the wave dissipates and travels out of the cue. That is why maple has been the wood of choice for shafts and is found in the forearm since FOREVER!!!!! It helps the ball to POP off the cue better as if the shot was given more energy than you put into it. (Not to mention musical instruments)

When you use ebony it not going to compress nearly as well, not by a long shot. It just sits there solid, while the harmonic vibration/energy goes through it and comes right back out without being altered positively or bumped up by structure of the wood, in a way the wave form is sort of buffered by the ebony.

It makes the hit feel dead, like if you shot the shot with a steel rod it would just make a sound like "TONK" because it lacks the compression ability to have the harmonic qualities that are found in say ROSEWOOD that will give you that nice ring like "PINGGGGG"

Compression resistance equals vibration resistance which equals a stiff or rigid hit that is flat sounding and dead feeling.

You don't see solid one piece ebony butt cues not only b/c of a weight issue but b/c it would be difficult to attain a good hit.

Thats why the only musical instruments that they use ebony in are some of the wind instruments like the clarinet. I know that people have tried to make violins out of ebony and they sounded dead and could not hit the highs.

I know maple has a compression resistance parallel to the grain somewhere around 7800PSI but I could not find a figure on ebony tho I could swear its somewhere in the 12k PSI range but I could be off somewhat, but it most definitely is much higher than the value of maple. And the compression resistance parallel to the grain in the wood you use is part of the foundation behind the functioning mechanics of a cue stick, and its ability to drive/propel the CB .

-Grey Ghost-

greyghost said:

Ebony is denser and has a greater compression resistance value as say a maple for example.

As the wave of energy from the hit passes through the cue woods with lower compression resistance the fibers slightly compress, then spring back to original position as the wave dissipates and travels out of the cue. That is why maple has been the wood of choice for shafts and is found in the forearm since FOREVER!!!!! It helps the ball to POP off the cue better as if the shot was given more energy than you put into it. (Not to mention musical instruments)

When you use ebony it not going to compress nearly as well, not by a long shot. It just sits there solid, while the harmonic vibration/energy goes through it and comes right back out without being altered positively or bumped up by structure of the wood, in a way the wave form is sort of buffered by the ebony.

It makes the hit feel dead, like if you shot the shot with a steel rod it would just make a sound like "TONK" because it lacks the compression ability to have the harmonic qualities that are found in say ROSEWOOD that will give you that nice ring like "PINGGGGG"

Compression resistance equals vibration resistance which equals a stiff or rigid hit that is flat sounding and dead feeling.

You don't see solid one piece ebony butt cues not only b/c of a weight issue but b/c it would be difficult to attain a good hit.

Thats why the only musical instruments that they use ebony in are some of the wind instruments like the clarinet. I know that people have tried to make violins out of ebony and they sounded dead and could not hit the highs.

I know maple has a compression resistance parallel to the grain somewhere around 7800PSI but I could not find a figure on ebony tho I could swear its somewhere in the 12k PSI range but I could be off somewhat, but it most definitely is much higher than the value of maple. And the compression resistance parallel to the grain in the wood you use is part of the foundation behind the functioning mechanics of a cue stick, and its ability to drive/propel the CB .

-Grey Ghost-

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Good example of theorizing - however as has been explained about
a gazillion times, nothing is more subjective than the evaluation of
the "hit" of a cue.

Untill someone defines a method for objective analisys with verifiable
data, I'll continue to assume it's all in the head<hands> of the hittor.

Dale<who can show you some actual cues>

pdcue said:

"More ebony equals stiffer, flatter feeling hit."

This hasn't necessarily been my experience.

At this point, it is time to declare that you and I should agree that we disagree. I would, however, be interested in seeing some objective data.

Dale

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Take a poll from players who have ran three racks or more in a row in nine ball, and get them to hit with a non cored ebony forearm cue and a non cored maple forearm cue and see what the results are. I think I already know what the majority would think. But it would make some interesting data. I could go to the wood charts and show you the compression and flex differences in ebony and maple as additional data, but it sounds like your mind is made up already. And I do trust you have strung a few 3 packs together, so you would qualify as someone who can feel the differences in the feel of a cue..

Ghosst said:

Keep in mind my interest is in the construction of a new snooker cue to match my custom pool cue. I asked about billiard cues originally because having watched a few dozen matches I see Europeans playing with similarly styled cues. Since they play very a different game I'm interested in what benefits their style of cue construction has over the western styles.

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In a nutshell.......their cues shoot striaghter