does the coach have to be a champion? i think not

Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
Gold Member
Silver Member
OK, so what has he accomplished in the world of pool? What are his bona fides? What's on his resume?

Lou Figueroa

If you would go out, I'd give you all of that. You can email him at robindreyer@com and ask those questions. A little bit is on that website. I wish you would. He needs someone like you or others that have been on AZB a long time to give added credibility. Give him a call but he is not a braggart. Give him a call and see what you think.
 
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lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If you would go out, I'd give you all of that. You can email him at robindreyer@com and ask those questions. A little bit is on that website. I wish you would. He needs someone like you or others that have been on AZB a long time to give added credibility. Give him a call but he is not a braggart. Give him a call and see what you think.


You are the one touting him: *here.*

If you cannot provide a credible resume *here* your recommendation *here* ends up looking pretty weak. I don't need to fly out to the West Coast to figure that out.

Lou Figueroa
 

Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
Gold Member
Silver Member
You are the one touting him: *here.*

If you cannot provide a credible resume *here* your recommendation *here* ends up looking pretty weak. I don't need to fly out to the West Coast to figure that out.

Lou Figueroa

I could say he's never missed a ball since 2010 but you would not go out. So to hell with it. You can say you've been to world's champions. Cool for you.
 
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lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I could say he's never missed a ball since 2010 but you would not go out. So to hell with it. You can say you've been to world's champions. Cool for you.


I would expect you to post something semi-credible ;-)

Lou Figueroa
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Would you go out if I did? So, everything I say is for naught. Let's drop it.


Where is the logic in that proposal?!

And you keep saying you want to drop it but keep posting and asking me questions, lol. If you want to drop it stop posting. Simple.

Lou Figueroa
 

Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
Gold Member
Silver Member
Where is the logic in that proposal?!

And you keep saying you want to drop it but keep posting and asking me questions, lol. If you want to drop it stop posting. Simple.

Lou Figueroa

PEACE! just trying to do the best for my teacher. Have a Merry Christmas! and Happy New Year!
 

bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Show me where I said if you can't play you can't teach.

Then tell me who in pool has similar level resumes as Landsdorf and Bollettieri?

Lou Figueroa

lou you have made 2 posts in this thread alluding to that attitude
i quote from one of them
.....
"You are the one touting him (meaning robin my edit ) : *here.*

If you cannot provide a credible resume *here* your recommendation *here* ends up looking pretty weak. I don't need to fly out to the West Coast to figure that out.

Lou Figueroa "
.....
dennis you have a way of twisting threads to bring more heat to you which doesnt help robin
i know your intentions are in a good place
but they are NOT very helpfull to him
jmho
lou
to get back on track and
you and dennis can have your flame war via pm please
let me make another tennis example since i play tennis too
"uncle toni" taught rafael nadal since childhood
rafael nadal is among the best that ever played tennis and probably the greatest clay court tennis player ever
so here is another example of a non accomplished player being a great teacher
 

TEAM SLO

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Plenty of examples of people in many different disciplines that are great, but cannot teach.

Teaching in itself is a skill, especially being able to teach to different backgrounds/learning traits and such.
 

cookie man

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
lou you have made 2 posts in this thread alluding to that attitude
i quote from one of them
.....
"You are the one touting him (meaning robin my edit ) : *here.*

If you cannot provide a credible resume *here* your recommendation *here* ends up looking pretty weak. I don't need to fly out to the West Coast to figure that out.

Lou Figueroa "
.....
dennis you have a way of twisting threads to bring more heat to you which doesnt help robin
i know your intentions are in a good place
but they are NOT very helpfull to him
jmho
lou
to get back on track and
you and dennis can have your flame war via pm please
let me make another tennis example since i play tennis too
"uncle toni" taught rafael nadal since childhood
rafael nadal is among the best that ever played tennis and probably the greatest clay court tennis player ever
so here is another example of a non accomplished player being a great teacher

The HOF baseball players very rarely make good coaches. It's always the lessor players that had to work harder to get where they were that make the best coaches. That being said i think in pool i'd go to an accomplished pro pool player for strategy lessons and stick to the regular instructors for everything else.
 

bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
The HOF baseball players very rarely make good coaches. It's always the lessor players that had to work harder to get where they were that make the best coaches. That being said i think in pool i'd go to an accomplished pro pool player for strategy lessons and stick to the regular instructors for everything else.

yes
i agree
when you need some icing on the the cake the cake maker may not be the best for the job
but first you have to make the cake.
going back to tennis
ivan lendl with andy murray and
boris becker with novak djokovic
both helped the players get grand slam championships
my guess providing insights /strategy/tactics only someone been there done that can provide
it wasnt to teach them how to hit a forehand
going back to pool
once you are at a very high level the champions can probably give insight the non champions cant.
that being said
you still can coach a champion or a player to become a champion without the coach having won a national/international championship yourself
jmho...and i am sticking to it....:D:p
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
lou you have made 2 posts in this thread alluding to that attitude
i quote from one of them
.....
"You are the one touting him (meaning robin my edit ) : *here.*

If you cannot provide a credible resume *here* your recommendation *here* ends up looking pretty weak. I don't need to fly out to the West Coast to figure that out.

Lou Figueroa "
.....
dennis you have a way of twisting threads to bring more heat to you which doesnt help robin
i know your intentions are in a good place
but they are NOT very helpfull to him
jmho
lou
to get back on track and
you and dennis can have your flame war via pm please
let me make another tennis example since i play tennis too
"uncle toni" taught rafael nadal since childhood
rafael nadal is among the best that ever played tennis and probably the greatest clay court tennis player ever
so here is another example of a non accomplished player being a great teacher


That quote has zero to do with what I asked.

And sure, there are guys who did not play a sport professionally but somehow end up being some kind of instructor. But Dennis is making the case that you should gravitate to those guys and that world champions cannot teach and that is BS.

My central point is that if you have to choose between a guy who has an established reputation as an instructor, based upon the recommendation of relatively new players, and a world champion level player who comes with recommendations from advanced players, it's a no brainer who you should choose. Some of these champions are excellent teachers with first hand experience about what works at the highest levels of the game and not just in their basement.

Lou Figueroa
 

Low500

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
yes
i agree
when you need some icing on the the cake the cake maker may not be the best for the job
but first you have to make the cake.
going back to tennis
ivan lendl with andy murray and
boris becker with novak djokovic
both helped the players get grand slam championships
my guess providing insights /strategy/tactics only someone been there done that can provide
it wasnt to teach them how to hit a forehand
going back to pool
once you are at a very high level the champions can probably give insight the non champions cant.
that being said
you still can coach a champion or a player to become a champion without the coach having won a national/international championship yourself
jmho...and i am sticking to it....:D:p
---------------
 
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Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
Gold Member
Silver Member
Jeremy Jones is an accomplished pool player.
Jeremy Jones teaches people how to play good pool
Mike Massey is an accomplished pool player.
Mike Massey teaches people how to play good pool.
Ray Martin is an accomplished pool player.
Ray Martin used to teach people how to play good pool.
Dallas West is an accomplished pool player.
Dallas West used to teach people how to play good pool.
Stan Shuffett is an accomplished pool player
Stan Shuffett teaches people how to play good pool.
Personally, I will take ANY of them over some fat bellied 'instructor' who makes a living telling lies about what a great player he was/is and never competes against others for fear of being exposed as a big phoney.
As you said, sir, ====> jmho...and I'm sticking to it
:thumbup:

How about this coach: Johan ruijsink usa captain 2018. His home team is the Billiard Brothers. Watch out for these guys. https://youtu.be/YIBVlMZmf70. Anyway, I wonder what world champions Johan has won?
 
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bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Jeremy Jones is an accomplished pool player.
Jeremy Jones teaches people how to play good pool
Mike Massey is an accomplished pool player.
Mike Massey teaches people how to play good pool.
Ray Martin is an accomplished pool player.
Ray Martin used to teach people how to play good pool.
Dallas West is an accomplished pool player.
Dallas West used to teach people how to play good pool.
Stan Shuffett is an accomplished pool player
Stan Shuffett teaches people how to play good pool.
Personally, I will take ANY of them over some fat bellied 'instructor' who makes a living telling lies about what a great player he was/is and never competes against others for fear of being exposed as a big phoney.
As you said, sir, ====> jmho...and I'm sticking to it
:thumbup:
once again Low500 i agree 100% with everything you said above....:eek:,,,:)
....:eek:k:
 

JC

Coos Cues
If someone is giving you advice look at what they have.

Expect that is what you will have if you take the advice.

Does someone need to be a champion? No. But they should give a champion enough to keep them interested on the table.

If you play at a 500 Fargo level are you qualified to be a "master instructor"?

Well I never had a math teacher in school that couldn't do the math they were teaching.

JC
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Think of all the teachers/instructors you've had in your life, not just for pool but going back to elementary school through college and your professional life.

Some were OK, a few were great, a bunch were probably a waste of time. But often it was the individual that related real world experiences and lessons that made the instruction relevant to you.

It's the same for pool.

Over the years I've spoken to many guys about what pool lessons they've taken. I know guys who have taken lessons from some renowned players who said afterwards it was a waste of money. I know guys who have paid a lot for lessons from a professional instructor -- guys who run schools, have written books, and put out DVDs, and said it was a waste of money. And then there are guys who have had revelatory experiences with pros, as well as with guys who just billed themselves as instructors. And what it boils down to is that it's like anything else in life, whether choosing a doctor or a car mechanic: you do your due diligence and you take your chances and stay or move on.

It's going to be different for every player. Some guys, at their level of play, would benefit from a few words of advice from the guy playing on the table next to them. Others need help on technique from guys that study the biomechanics of the game. And others are more interested in advanced strategy.

Myself, I'd never take lessons from some guys because I know people who have and the reviews have not been good. Others I would not take lessons from include guys who teach an approach or have an emphasis on a particular technique that I don't agree with, or who focus on an aiming system that I do not believe works. Not interested.

But the guy who can relate real world experiences, share those, and relate it to my game... very interested. As an example, when I spent time with Dallas West, we reached a point in the lesson that went like this:

#####
And so it went, shot after shot until, without realizing it, I had run somewhere around 70-80 balls fresh out of the gate. When I finally missed (I had no shot and was frozen against the stack and missed a table length kick) he said, “You have a real nice touch, Lou. And, I know you didn’t want to get into basics, but… would you like to know what took me from being a 70-ball runner to the next level? Because I can see that’s where you’re at and it’s something you could work on.” And I said (wait for it), “Yes.” And he told me and frankly it’s not something I’m going to give away. You all need to see Dallas for that one, but believe me, it has been helping me *A Lot.* In this same vein, he showed me two shots and their variants that he said were essential for me to learn to excel at straight pool (I knew one of them from my 1pocket endeavors, but not the other.)
#####

IMO, you can only get that kind of stuff from an accomplished player who is speaking from first hand experience and is teaching you something from his life in competition and gifting it to you. That's the good stuff. YMMV.

Lou Figueroa
 

bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Think of all the teachers/instructors you've had in your life, not just for pool but going back to elementary school through college and your professional life.

Some were OK, a few were great, a bunch were probably a waste of time. But often it was the individual that related real world experiences and lessons that made the instruction relevant to you.

It's the same for pool.

Over the years I've spoken to many guys about what pool lessons they've taken. I know guys who have taken lessons from some renowned players who said afterwards it was a waste of money. I know guys who have paid a lot for lessons from a professional instructor -- guys who run schools, have written books, and put out DVDs, and said it was a waste of money. And then there are guys who have had revelatory experiences with pros, as well as with guys who just billed themselves as instructors. And what it boils down to is that it's like anything else in life, whether choosing a doctor or a car mechanic: you do your due diligence and you take your chances and stay or move on.

It's going to be different for every player. Some guys, at their level of play, would benefit from a few words of advice from the guy playing on the table next to them. Others need help on technique from guys that study the biomechanics of the game. And others are more interested in advanced strategy.

Myself, I'd never take lessons from some guys because I know people who have and the reviews have not been good. Others I would not take lessons from include guys who teach an approach or have an emphasis on a particular technique that I don't agree with, or who focus on an aiming system that I do not believe works. Not interested.

But the guy who can relate real world experiences, share those, and relate it to my game... very interested. As an example, when I spent time with Dallas West, we reached a point in the lesson that went like this:

#####
And so it went, shot after shot until, without realizing it, I had run somewhere around 70-80 balls fresh out of the gate. When I finally missed (I had no shot and was frozen against the stack and missed a table length kick) he said, “You have a real nice touch, Lou. And, I know you didn’t want to get into basics, but… would you like to know what took me from being a 70-ball runner to the next level? Because I can see that’s where you’re at and it’s something you could work on.” And I said (wait for it), “Yes.” And he told me and frankly it’s not something I’m going to give away. You all need to see Dallas for that one, but believe me, it has been helping me *A Lot.* In this same vein, he showed me two shots and their variants that he said were essential for me to learn to excel at straight pool (I knew one of them from my 1pocket endeavors, but not the other.)
#####

IMO, you can only get that kind of stuff from an accomplished player who is speaking from first hand experience and is teaching you something from his life in competition and gifting it to you. That's the good stuff. YMMV.

Lou Figueroa
i think we agree that to be a great coach you dont have to be a champion
and not all champions are great teachers.
also i understand and agree with you that for what you are looking for is the champion that can teach.
thats the right "fit " for you
but doesnt exclude the benefit a non champion can offer
i think we agree...:)
 

cookie man

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
yes
i agree
when you need some icing on the the cake the cake maker may not be the best for the job
but first you have to make the cake.
going back to tennis
ivan lendl with andy murray and
boris becker with novak djokovic
both helped the players get grand slam championships
my guess providing insights /strategy/tactics only someone been there done that can provide
it wasnt to teach them how to hit a forehand
going back to pool
once you are at a very high level the champions can probably give insight the non champions cant.
that being said
you still can coach a champion or a player to become a champion without the coach having won a national/international championship yourself
jmho...and i am sticking to it....:D:p

I agree.......
 

Low500

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
How about this coach: Johan ruijsink usa captain 2018. His home team is the Billiard Brothers. Watch out for these guys. https://youtu.be/YIBVlMZmf70. Anyway, I wonder what world champions Johan has won?
I never said that an instructor has to be a champion.
I said that an instructor needs to be someone who has played under pressure and is still capable of playing under pressure and can show some heart against someone who is dead set on burning his ass in competition. That's where the rubber hits the road, in my opinion.
Not a "fat belly" who blows smoke with a silly grin about how much he knows, and the number of years he has been 'teaching', but never shoots any serious pool against someone who is a player.
Another poster here, said it well about he "never had a math teacher who couldn't do the math that was being taught."
Talk is cheap, you know.
:wink:
 
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