The Myth of the Great Shotmaker

i have a friend that is like this. im still not entirely sure what you mean. My friend can fire in all kinds of crazzy shots banks and cuts ect.. but has no idea on english. when he tries to use other englishes other than draw he cant make anything. He then dosent stay calm enough to see what is happening so he can fix it.. i dont say anything cuz its easy money and he refuses to learn.. but he does keep a good aveage in leauge.

i also was like this. i think most are when you start pool. like mile stones. first you get your aminng down. then you learn a better stroke. then you start to see angles better. then the big one were lots of players get stuck. learning english. then position ball. so in my mine its just alot of stepping stones to get better. one step at a time will alwayas make a better pool player then someone trying to skip steps.

Moving up the APA skill ranks, I've mostly gotten the job done through strategy. Sure, I can make some shots, but when it came down to it, I was always better off playing smarter. What's frustrated me, is having to face players of a lower or similar rating that could shoot better than I do/did.

About a year ago, I went to our regional 8 tournament for BCA at the coast. I played like crap, went 2-n-out and proceeded to fart around on the tables afterwards. I was playing some kid from the Seattle area. He asked what I was rated in APA, I told him a 7. He was a 6. He made nearly any open shot, but he couldn't do a breakout if his butt counted on it. Unfortunately, I couldn't run out a rack for a couple of hours if I needed to. So, half the time I would rattle or something, then he'd just pluck off whatever was left. Finally, I got my stuff together and started running out. He finally believed that I was what I said(he had been trying to give me tips/pointers). If I could shoot as straight as some of the people I've faced, I'd be not too shabby.

I think the reason that you sometime see (or think you see) people that may appear to be better shot makers but can't win games against what appear to be poorer shot makers is they don't have any choice but to be a great shot maker. This is due to their inability to control the cue ball or in most cases, their total lack of effort to play position. I also think you tend to notice these so called great shot makers because the occasional great shot they make stands out so much.

If you see a player consistently making great shots you probably are looking at a player that doesn't win that often against good competition. If that great shot maker was a great player, they wouldn't have to be making so many great shots. Seems to me like the great players make it look rather easy as they're so consistently putting the cb in a position to make easy shots.

nobcitypool said:

I think the reason that you sometime see (or think you see) people that may appear to be better shot makers but can't win games against what appear to be poorer shot makers is they don't have any choice but to be a great shot maker. This is due to their inability to control the cue ball or in most cases, their total lack of effort to play position. I also think you tend to notice these so called great shot makers because the occasional great shot they make stands out so much.

If you see a player consistently making great shots you probably are looking at a player that doesn't win that often against good competition. If that great shot maker was a great player, they wouldn't have to be making so many great shots. Seems to me like the great players make it look rather easy as they're so consistently putting the cb in a position to make easy shots.

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That is it in a nutshell. The easiest and most reliable way to run a rack is to just have a string of easy shots. The can only be accomplished with knowledge though and so you will see pool players going through different tiers of skill.

Controlling the cueball is something that eludes many players because in order to do it you need to be a master at the stroke. If any part of your stroke mechanics fall off the position play will suffer.

nobcitypool said:

I think the reason that you sometime see (or think you see) people that may appear to be better shot makers but can't win games against what appear to be poorer shot makers is they don't have any choice but to be a great shot maker. This is due to their inability to control the cue ball or in most cases, their total lack of effort to play position. I also think you tend to notice these so called great shot makers because the occasional great shot they make stands out so much.

If you see a player consistently making great shots you probably are looking at a player that doesn't win that often against good competition. If that great shot maker was a great player, they wouldn't have to be making so many great shots. Seems to me like the great players make it look rather easy as they're so consistently putting the cb in a position to make easy shots.

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I think you've got 'great shot maker' confused with 'maker of great shots'. I understood it to be 'great at making shots', but maybe I was wrong.

right you are!

nobcitypool said:

I think the reason that you sometime see (or think you see) people that may appear to be better shot makers but can't win games against what appear to be poorer shot makers is they don't have any choice but to be a great shot maker. This is due to their inability to control the cue ball or in most cases, their total lack of effort to play position. I also think you tend to notice these so called great shot makers because the occasional great shot they make stands out so much.

If you see a player consistently making great shots you probably are looking at a player that doesn't win that often against good competition. If that great shot maker was a great player, they wouldn't have to be making so many great shots. Seems to me like the great players make it look rather easy as they're so consistently putting the cb in a position to make easy shots.

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While they are great players, very few of even the top players consistently play great position. As long as rough position works they are in great shape. When they have a bunch of balls on the table and have to travel tight paths they often fail. My opinion, almost every pool player has substantially better ball pocketing ability than cue ball control.

Snooker is actually a pretty simple game played mostly on a small surface when things go right. You play on an area six feet by about three or four feet most of the game. You start off with sixteen balls in that little area. Can you say congestion? Even with the smaller balls a snooker player often needs better cue ball control. Move them to a five by ten and it gets even tougher. Three cushion, you have to know where both balls are going too, maybe three balls. Pool, particularly rotation games on a nine footer, puts the least demands on cue ball control. Sure you have to move it around but you are dealing with less and less traffic and there isn't much to begin with.

My contention is that not one in a hundred pool players controls the cue ball as well as they make shots so "all" are better ball pocketers than position players. One that stood out in my past was the hippie. Not any of the famous "hippie"s of pool lore, a burnt out stoner in his early or mid-twenties I used to play. Couldn't play shape or just plain didn't care. He had the eyes of an eagle and not a nerve in his body. We tied up off and on for a year or two and would draw a crowd when we played. His stock in trade was cutting in any ball from anywhere on the ratty old nine footers we played on. Totally ridiculous cut shots and they often fell.

This was long before I focused on cue ball control and I tried to go head to head with him on cut shots and made some pretty amazing ones myself simply because we both tried everything. I knew if I could match him cutting balls I could outcut almost any other player I ever faced. The (unofficial)rules of the time and place didn't allow safety play so it was 100% offense. We played dozens of times and it was always anybody's guess who would win. I finally started banking the balls that were easier to bank than cut and that made the difference, I started winning a lot more sessions than I lost. He picked up and went back to New York one fine day, don't know if he planned it or just took a notion. He left behind a bodaciously built wife and two small children, as far as I know never to be seen again.

Hu

zpele said:

Controlling the cueball is something that eludes many players because in order to do it you need to be a master at the stroke. If any part of your stroke mechanics fall off the position play will suffer.

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Very well put. I was that mythical "shotmaker" for many years. They use to call me rocket-pocket. No real position play, but I was a great shot and good enough to known as a local ace. Then I went to a real pool hall and played in a tournament. I've spent the last three years or so learning proper stroke mechanics and position play. I've put a fair amount of "work" into it.

Oddly, for a long time, my "shotmaking" abilty was worse for it and my banks still aren't as good as they were, but I can finally say I'm significantly better than I was or certainly would ever have been had I not taken the time to study what had always seemed a mostly intuitive game.

There's a young shooter at my home pool room, regarded as a strong player for his age by many, who I feel is more of a shooter than all-around player. He can definitely control the rock when he tries to, but he doesn't always want to Playing 1P, you'd notice him getting into trouble by shooting for the out a little too often. And in 9-ball, his fire power leads him to play looser shape. When his head starts controling his arm, he'll be damn good.

I think that consistent shot making vs. position play alternate in priority as you move up through the ranks.

• New players struggle so badly with shot making that position play is just an unnecessary distraction.
• Once they get beyond the point of making routine shots well enough to call them routine shots, they start to learn to play position off those shots to make more of their shots routine.
• Once they can navigate a rack well enough to run out every now and then, the priority shifts back to shot making so they can start runs from more difficult positions or feel comfortable sacrificing position on the next ball in order to make a really tough shot.

When I have played against a pro or shortstop level players, I am very rarely impressed by their ability to play position so much as their ability to consistently pocket tough shots and play position at the same time.

Whenever I watch the professionals on TV or on streaming video, I am always way more impressed with their cb control than their shot making. When I say that, by no means do they get in absolute perfect position every single shot. But they seem to consistently get on the right side of the ob where they have a reasonable chance to get position on their next shot. All the pros seem to be what I'd consider "great shotmakers". But it also seems that when they do find themselves grossly out of position, while they may make that next great shot, as often as not they end up going to the well once too often and turning the ball over to the opponent.

I know a guy fairly new to pool who tries for and makes pretty impressive shots. But it's exactly as you say: he can't control the cueball enough to give himself easier shots.

Also, he's a very aggressive, "the only goal is to put balls in pockets" kind of player, so he almost never plays safe.

The fvck is a safe?

Charlie Hustle said:

The fvck is a safe?

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A thing that keeps your money/valuables out of the reach of others. :thumbup:

Banks said:

A thing that keeps your money/valuables out of the reach of others. :thumbup:

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I think they sometime refer to condoms as safes in Canada. Those crazy Canadians. LOL

I think people have alot of trouble clearly analyzing a players skill because of a few factors. This trouble makes it very difficult to compare a players relative skills. I feel the first and most important factor is bpi (balls per inning). If you are playing 8 ball for instance. And your opponent breaks fails to make a ball you run 5 "easy shots" then safety. He makes a very low percentage kick shot leaving himself very bad on his next ball a long cut makes it. But again leaves himself a hard bank which he just barely misses. You run-out your remaining 3 easy balls. In this case your average bpi is 4 his is 1. Another factor is how we define making a shot. If you sink a ball but fail to improve your odds of winning that game in a meaningful way was that a good shot? No matter how difficult it was to pocket the ball if it doesn't help you to win its opportunity cost is way to high especially if their is a better option available. All players have a variety of strengths and weaknesses and how those skills aggregate is what really matters.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

Banks said:

A thing that keeps your money/valuables out of the reach of others. :thumbup:

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Good answer sir, good answer.

BasementDweller said:

Everybody always talks about the "Great Shotmaker" that really can't play position very well but they sure can fire the balls in. I've even been guilty of this in the past. However, the more I play the more I believe that these supposed great shotmakers don't exist.

Don't get me wrong, there are great shotmakers in this game, it's just I can't think of and I certainly don't know any great shotmakers that aren't also great overall players.

Also, some beginning players will often times fire in balls that more experienced players wouldn't even attempt. I think many times this is just because the more experienced player has a better understanding of the percentages, not necessarily because he can't pocket the ball.

I've approached the shot making vs. position play conversation several different times on here and I'm really not looking to discuss that (but feel free to if you want). What I'm curious about is do you actually know someone that can really fire the balls in (better than you can) but doesn't have a clue how to move whitey around?

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I'm sure everyone is happy I'm here.

Here's the deal, if there is no shape for the next shot, then is wasn't a great shot no matter if he sent the OB 14 rails, jumped off to another table and went in the pocket he wanted.

A shot in pool consists of two parts, pocketing the ball and shape.

I've made great shots only not to get the shape I wanted. When someone says something like that was a great shot, I'm quick to point out that because I didn't get the shape Iwanted, the shot was not great.

The sooner a player starts thinking this way, the sooner they become a great shot maker.

This is something that 14.1 and 8 ball will teach you.

I can think of a great shot maker.....Babe Cranfield. To run 700 plus balls and have the credentials he does, you got to be a great shot maker. Oh wait, he played 14.1.

Pool is not one game, but games, old ones and new ones. I often wonder what game is being referred to in post that just say, this game.

BasementDweller said:

Everybody always talks about the "Great Shotmaker" that really can't play position very well but they sure can fire the balls in. I've even been guilty of this in the past. However, the more I play the more I believe that these supposed great shotmakers don't exist.

Don't get me wrong, there are great shotmakers in this game, it's just I can't think of and I certainly don't know any great shotmakers that aren't also great overall players.

Also, some beginning players will often times fire in balls that more experienced players wouldn't even attempt. I think many times this is just because the more experienced player has a better understanding of the percentages, not necessarily because he can't pocket the ball.

I've approached the shot making vs. position play conversation several different times on here and I'm really not looking to discuss that (but feel free to if you want). What I'm curious about is do you actually know someone that can really fire the balls in (better than you can) but doesn't have a clue how to move whitey around?

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Good post. Never seen anyone with good to great pocketing and no cue ball. You see it at the bar now and then, but it doesnt last long. Big tables, never seen that no. If I do find a guy that fires balls in better than me and has no cue ball, I just might quit pool for good!

There is a certain style of play that some players use where they purposefully get a little tougher than most people prefer on many shots because those shots are still high percentage for them, but trying to get closer shape makes the shot slightly lower percentage. They are still controlling the cue ball well, but to players that aren't used to that style, it might look like they are just pocketing tough shot after tough shot.