"Diamondizing" a Gold Crown III.. In Germany

I'll tell all of you something else too. A lot of you sure like to pump up the work done by so-n-so table mechanics being great at the work they do, and there's a lot of pool table mechanics that take offense to the things i post about the work being done in this industry. And there's a whole bunch of you that work on pool tables that like pointing the finger at the hack work done by others in this industry, which sure as hell does point out how bad it really is, BUT while pointing fingers, you all are guilty of NOT showing the work you did to fix what you've pointed out as being hack work! And while you build up the reputation of table mechanics as being great at their job, you fail to provide any pictures to support your claims. Well, like it or not, I'm not one to hide my work and let customers GUESS what kind of work i do, and i don't hide behind a computer screen telling people I'm great at my job, and for that matter, neither does Mark Gregory. When you people want to refer work to a table mechanic, do the potential customers a favor....show some of the work performed by the table mechanic so everyone can get an idea of what YOU think is great work, then people can see for themselves as to if you're full of shit, or know what you're talking about. These are the same Anniversaries rails Mark built that i just pictured above, only this time, i straightened out the whole table, not just the rails, and the table now plays great, and Marks rail work is no longer the reason why the table played so badly when his rails were installed!!! The first picture is the side pocket of a Diamond set of rails, do you see any difference between the cloth work on the Diamond vs the Anniversary rails????

realkingcobra said:

I'll tell all of you something else too. A lot of you sure like to pump up the work done by so-n-so table mechanics being great at the work they do, and there's a lot of pool table mechanics that take offense to the things i post about the work being done in this industry. And there's a whole bunch of you that work on pool tables that like pointing the finger at the hack work done by others in this industry, which sure as hell does point out how bad it really is, BUT while pointing fingers, you all are guilty of NOT showing the work you did to fix what you've pointed out as being hack work! And while you build up the reputation of table mechanics as being great at their job, you fail to provide any pictures to support your claims. Well, like it or not, I'm not one to hide my work and let customers GUESS what kind of work i do, and i don't hide behind a computer screen telling people I'm great at my job, and for that matter, neither does Mark Gregory. When you people want to refer work to a table mechanic, do the potential customers a favor....show some of the work performed by the table mechanic so everyone can get an idea of what YOU think is great work, then people can see for themselves as to if you're full of shit, or know what you're talking about. These are the same Anniversaries rails Mark built that i just pictured above, only this time, i straightened out the whole table, not just the rails, and the table now plays great, and Marks rail work is no longer the reason why the table played so badly when his rails were installed!!! The first picture is the side pocket of a Diamond set of rails, do you see any difference between the cloth work on the Diamond vs the Anniversary rails????

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Angled staples on the diamond.


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realkingcobra said:

I'll tell all of you something else too. A lot of you sure like to pump up the work done by so-n-so table mechanics being great at the work they do, and there's a lot of pool table mechanics that take offense to the things i post about the work being done in this industry. And there's a whole bunch of you that work on pool tables that like pointing the finger at the hack work done by others in this industry, which sure as hell does point out how bad it really is, BUT while pointing fingers, you all are guilty of NOT showing the work you did to fix what you've pointed out as being hack work! And while you build up the reputation of table mechanics as being great at their job, you fail to provide any pictures to support your claims. Well, like it or not, I'm not one to hide my work and let customers GUESS what kind of work i do, and i don't hide behind a computer screen telling people I'm great at my job, and for that matter, neither does Mark Gregory. When you people want to refer work to a table mechanic, do the potential customers a favor....show some of the work performed by the table mechanic so everyone can get an idea of what YOU think is great work, then people can see for themselves as to if you're full of shit, or know what you're talking about. These are the same Anniversaries rails Mark built that i just pictured above, only this time, i straightened out the whole table, not just the rails, and the table now plays great, and Marks rail work is no longer the reason why the table played so badly when his rails were installed!!! The first picture is the side pocket of a Diamond set of rails, do you see any difference between the cloth work on the Diamond vs the Anniversary rails????

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Oh my.....I DID NOT FINISH THOSE RAILS.....THATS NOT MY WORK......I MADE THE RAILS......BUT THATS WHAT PEOPLE DO TO MY WORK.....NOT AGAIN......IF I MAKE A SET OF RAILS....EITHER GLEN OR I WILL INSTALL THEM.....IT’S NOT ABOUT THE MONEY....THAT JUST MADE ME SICK LOOKING AT THOSE RAILS I MADE......NO MORE.

MARK GREGORY

DrawBack74 said:

Angled staples on the diamond.


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All depends on how close the cloth is to the staples when you go to trim the excess cloth. If you don't have much cloth to work with, trimming it to close to the staples will just let the cloth pull free later on. If you angle the staples so both legs of the staples are NOT in the same weave, then no matter how close you trim the cloth to the staples, it won't pull free later on.

Lol! Mark we all know you didn't do the hack work. Too funny!...Ok I'm back. First off I want to say this is my last post here due to the subject getting out of line with the original post. To the originator I really hope all pans out very well with your table in Germany.

With that being said ..... Glen, heres my facts why.... we can agree that Artemis I-66 profile is based loosely on a larger nose k-55 profile.The Artemis I-66 is produced as a 3c cushion. The sub rails obviously can be made or modified to accept the I-66 both ways on a std. 1-3/4" rail. Now heres the differences. When the I-66 are installed canvas side up on a pool table that drops the nose down for a std. 2-1/4" pool ball. The point of impact will flare slightly into the underside of the cushion. Which creates a taller contact point. It will hold the ball more. Especially if there is no cushion index on the subrail this can shorten the rebound angle and more so as the rail cloth becomes worn and oily. This can be ok for some games but not real predictable. Also what happens is when a ball impacts the cushion flat side up it will create a wide "U" effect which flares the nose of the cushion and pushes up on the upper back at the subrail. That makes for a stiffer impact. While this can be ok for the weight and speed ratio of 3c balls its not needed for smaller lighter pool balls. So I can see it being a 50/50 for 3c depending on how you want it to play. Klematch p-59 cushions are installed arc up canvas down. Interesting that Artemis says to install the opposite.

Ok now I'm sure we can agree that commercial k-55 pool cushions are installed arc up correct? With them also having the canvas infused in the extruded cushions on the arc side correct? Which is the top correct? Ok now we must realize what we are working with. Here are 3c cushions that are molded. Not extruded.These are 100% pure gum rubber base. These cool more evenly than an extruded type cushion. They give a much more consistent rebound naturally than the American type pool cushions, which have a lot of clay fillers and rely on the canvas strip to control or even the rebounds down the length of the rail. When cushions are installed correctly for pool the arc side is up. The impact compression point is more even. the impact also pushes though the centerline of the upper lobe and raises the center of the arc. So the arc rises and then compresses again creating one fluid harmonic transfer. Which makes for a lively rebound due to its not transferring straight back into the subrail. A more predictable rebound. They simply play truer this way. I prefer predictable though I guess there are some things I don't understand.....

Which leads me to my next question. How is it possible to rebuild old rails to new? That I don't understand? First of all I have never seen that you have even replaced formica on a rail. Your pictures show that the horrible t-anchors for the castings are still there which ALWAYS loosen up. To rout out areas of beat up wood just to place in new Poplar and butt glue it in is ok work I guess but its not nearly to the degree that my rails are made. You can't put a cushion index on a subrail with a skilsaw. Are your subrail tops tapered for smooth cushion transfer? There are things like engineered glue joinery for more glue contact area and to resist twist. Then vertical indexing for 180 deg. transfers for no future warpage. etc. My casting anchors are the same as rail bolt anchors. Good luck stripping those! As far as the end grain goes if you feel your great great grandchild will need to address subrail end issues I can put Kevlar inserts in. I am a custom shop. I make things how my customer wants them. These rails I make for hard working individuals that can't afford to throw several thousand dollars at a higher priced table but deserve to have one that plays a good if not better. Should I raise the price to $2500? thats what they are worth! No I will continue to work hard also. Now I do agree that a good level table that will stay level and good cloth installation is equally important. The installation of a set of rails is not rocket science! The rails I make for a gold crown are the single highest upgrade you can make to a gold crown. They will drastically improve the playability As a matter of fact I would take any old gold crown with decent slate with my rails and comparable cushions.... I would put it next to Any other pool table in the country. Any manufacturer.

I understand that everyone has the reasons for how they think or what they do. Glen I may disagree with you on some things but thats ok. If your lucky enough to see retirement coming up for you I commend you and wish you a very happy one.

First off, if the indexing hump in the middle of the sub rail face was as important as you'd have everyone believe it is, Brunswick, Diamond, Gabriels, Kim Steel, Olhausen and every top tier table manufacturer would be using it, but none are...why not? Second, yes the I66 cushions are a 3C cushion, but more directly, its a straight rail cushion, not a true 3C cushion. Artemis and Klematch both make a 3C cushion, but its so dense that if you pull and stretch the cloth over the nose of the cushions with a pair of pliers, you can't dimple the nose of the cushions....why not? Because the hardness of the cushions produces the most consistent banks that don't change angles when banked hard, harder, or softer. Pocket pool on the other hand, requires a softer cushion, in which banks can be manipulated to shorten up, or lengthen depending on the speed and english applied on the bank. That's a fact, not an opinion. I've installed the Klematch P59 K55 profile cushions on a Diamond 9ft Pro to test them, and 2 weeks later had to replace them as the bank pool players didn't like the way they play...and I'm talking about HOF bank pool players. I'm not going to go into explaining nose heights with you, but i guarantee you, yours are not the same as mine and Marks. As far as your sub rails being stronger than mine...LOL....how do you recommend you test that other than writing it down on paper as in a theory. Are you aware i use 3 1/2" long dominoes to attach my sub rails, so I'm not just relying on face to face glue to hold them on???

As far as replacing the laminate on the rails to make them look new, I'm not nearly as interested in doing that as you are for the very reason the laminate is f&%ked up in the first place. The first time a hack uses a hammer to pound in the featherstrips and caves in the laminate with all those little half moon hammer marks along the featherstrip....someones going to get sick as a dog seening that done to their nice, brand new rails....and if you're betting that isn't going to happen, I've got some swamp land I'll sell you at a very good price. If YOU personally are NOT installing the rails you're selling, then guess which door you just left open for the customer??? The door to getting screwed over!!! I work in the commercial industry, not the white glove home table industry, where no NEW rails are going to remain new longer than a month!!

He never misses an opportunity...

realkingcobra said:

First off, if the indexing hump in the middle of the sub rail face was as important as you'd have everyone believe it is, Brunswick, Diamond, Gabriels, Kim Steel, Olhausen and every top tier table manufacturer would be using it, but none are...why not? Second, yes the I66 cushions are a 3C cushion, but more directly, its a straight rail cushion, not a true 3C cushion. Artemis and Klematch both make a 3C cushion, but its so dense that if you pull and stretch the cloth over the nose of the cushions with a pair of pliers, you can't dimple the nose of the cushions....why not? Because the hardness of the cushions produces the most consistent banks that don't change angles when banked hard, harder, or softer. Pocket pool on the other hand, requires a softer cushion, in which banks can be manipulated to shorten up, or lengthen depending on the speed and english applied on the bank. That's a fact, not an opinion. I've installed the Klematch P59 K55 profile cushions on a Diamond 9ft Pro to test them, and 2 weeks later had to replace them as the bank pool players didn't like the way they play...and I'm talking about HOF bank pool players. I'm not going to go into explaining nose heights with you, but i guarantee you, yours are not the same as mine and Marks. As far as your sub rails being stronger than mine...LOL....how do you recommend you test that other than writing it down on paper as in a theory. Are you aware i use 3 1/2" long dominoes to attach my sub rails, so I'm not just relying on face to face glue to hold them on???

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I agree with both of you on somethings as much as I disagree with both of you on other things.....the Artemis and klematch cushions are not good for pool.....the Brunswick super speed installed correctly are the best cushions today for pool....PERIOD.

As far as Formica replacement.....that’s fine...but the rest of the table is for the most part pretty well beat up.
The new rails Jerimy is making...is good....but I don’t believe they are going to play any better than the rails I rebuild......domino jointing the sub rails.....I don’t bevel the tops of my sub rails....I cut them at 1/32nd lower than my rails....I just don’t like the way they have the cloth not touch the sub rails.

Believe me.....new rails are a great offer.....for poolrooms maybe if they’re not interested in buying new tables.
I’ve done a lot of rails the last 15 years.....I’ve played on my rails as well.....I feel the same way as Jerimy does....my rails play awesome......as I’m sure Glen feels the same of his.

The rails are without a doubt the most important part of the table....not to many level tables out there...DIAMONDS....LOL

I RECOVER THE RAILS I REPAIR NOW.....THAT WAY EVEN IF A HACK PUTS THEM ON...THEY WILL STILL PLAY GREAT.

Mark Gregory

ShortBusRuss said:

I never met someone in my life who was really, REALLY good at something, that didn't have a huge ego.

If you want to associate with people who are top notch in their field, you need to grow thicker skin, brah... :grin-square::grin-square::grin-square:

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You mean all the good ones you met disparage everyone else ?
Does Steve Spielberg go around telling people every other director is a hack ?
Did Ansel Adams say all other photographers are hacks ?
Bob Loveless might have been the best knife maker ever. He sure didn't go around calling other makers hacks.

JoeyInCali said:

You mean all the good ones you met disparage everyone else ?

Does Steve Spielberg go around telling people every other director is a hack ?

Did Ansel Adams say all other photographers are hacks ?

Bob Loveless might have been the best knife maker ever. He sure didn't go around calling other makers hacks.

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Tell this to Nicky Minaj or as I refer to her as Donkey Minaj




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JoeyInCali said:

You mean all the good ones you met disparage everyone else ?
Does Steve Spielberg go around telling people every other director is a hack ?
Did Ansel Adams say all other photographers are hacks ?
Bob Loveless might have been the best knife maker ever. He sure didn't go around calling other makers hacks.

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Real simple Joey, post some pictures of the pocket work done by the table mechanics in California that look this good....shouldn't be hard to find good examples according to you. I'm ot talking about the rail work, I'm talking about the slate pocket shelf work!

DrawBack74 said:

Tell this to Nicky Minaj or as I refer to her as Donkey Minaj

View attachment 500694


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Would have loved to have seen that brawl with Cardi B. LOL

ShortBusRuss said:

None of the people you mentioned have to do the work to repair other people's hack work. So, to that extent, I am okay with his venting.

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Well, if we are going to be consistent, your new rails are not gonna be up to his standards by a mile . Or maybe a few hundred miles.
And if we don't mince words, it's gonna be a hackery .

Joey, just post up some pictures of what YOU consider to be great work done on a pool table, should be real simple for you, right.

perfectpocketz said:

I agree with both of you on somethings as much as I disagree with both of you on other things.....the Artemis and klematch cushions are not good for pool.....the Brunswick super speed installed correctly are the best cushions today for pool....PERIOD.



Mark Gregory

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Ouch!
Springy ?

JoeyInCali said:

Ouch!
Springy ?

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Trying to explain the reasoning behind the cushions to you is like trying to teach algebra to a 2nd grader, you'll just never understand!! I like the superspeed cushions too, but not for the reasons you think!!