Standard Definition for Tips of English

nibrobus · Jun 3, 2017

Hi guys, came across this diagram (taken from http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/English.html) showing how many tips of english translates on the cue ball. I never really thought that people might have a different definition of what "1 tip" of english actually means. Turns out what I thought was "1 tip" is actually "1/2 tip" on the diagram.

I've been playing the game a long time but I still continuously try to expand my knowledge of the game. I like to watch instructional videos along with asking questions and taking advice from players better than myself. Since I could be interpreting someone else's 1 tip of english as actually 1.5 tips, is there at least a majority consensus on the definition of "tips of english"?

AtLarge · Jun 3, 2017

And some people define a tip of english in terms of the size of the contact patch or chalkmark on the cue ball rather than the diameter or radius of the tip.

nibrobus · Jun 3, 2017

Actually, now that I look at the diagram again my definition of tips would be 1 tip is at the 1/2 tip mark, while 2 tips is the 1.5 tip mark. I guess I really don't have an idea how many tips I'm applying lol.

philly · Jun 3, 2017

All I know is I don't want to think about any of that while over a shot.

Ralph Kramden · Jun 3, 2017

philly said:
All I know is I don't want to think about any of that while over a shot.

Me either.... Is your tip 11.5mm or 13.5mm?
The tip would contact at different CB points.

.

maha · Jun 3, 2017

it seems simple to me. one tip means moving your whole tip over one width of it. not a half width over. that is a half tip.

Cornerman · Jun 3, 2017

nibrobus said:
Hi guys, came across this diagram (taken from http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/English.html) showing how many tips of english translates on the cue ball. I never really thought that people might have a different definition of what "1 tip" of english actually means. Turns out what I thought was "1 tip" is actually "1/2 tip" on the diagram.

I've been playing the game a long time but I still continuously try to expand my knowledge of the game. I like to watch instructional videos along with asking questions and taking advice from players better than myself. Since I could be interpreting someone else's 1 tip of english as actually 1.5 tips, is there at least a majority consensus on the definition of "tips of english"?

I'm with the left diagram.

I was goofing around with the miscue limit yesterday. I was able to repeatedly strike the cueball by aiming at the edge of the cueball with the center of the tip using Masters Blue and a regular shaft with my Lambros cue. I'm 1000% sure I'm not the only guy on my street that can do this.

I'm wondering how many tips that is.

Freddie <~~~ can't hit center ball

Scott Lee · Jun 3, 2017

This is not accurate. Regardless of tip size, the size of the contact patch between the tip and CB remains at 3mm or 1/8". Even when there is a bigger chalk mark on the CB when you break, that's chalk dust blowback. Contact is still only 3mm. FYI, there are 7 tip positions on the vertical and horizontal axis. Most of us only think about 5.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Ralph Kramden said:
Me either.... Is your tip 11.5mm or 13.5mm?
The tip would contact at different CB points.

.

Ralph Kramden · Jun 3, 2017

nibrobus said:
Hi guys, came across this diagram (taken from http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/English.html) showing how many tips of english translates on the cue ball. I never really thought that people might have a different definition of what "1 tip" of english actually means. Turns out what I thought was "1 tip" is actually "1/2 tip" on the diagram.

I've been playing the game a long time but I still continuously try to expand my knowledge of the game. I like to watch instructional videos along with asking questions and taking advice from players better than myself. Since I could be interpreting someone else's 1 tip of english as actually 1.5 tips, is there at least a majority consensus on the definition of "tips of english"?

Ralph Kramden said:
Me either.... Is your tip 11.5mm or 13.5mm?
The tip would contact at different CB points.

.

Scott Lee said:
This is not accurate. Regardless of tip size, the size of the contact patch between the tip and CB remains at 3mm or 1/8". Even when there is a bigger chalk mark on the CB when you break, that's chalk dust blowback. Contact is still only 3mm. FYI, there are 7 tip positions on the vertical and horizontal axis. Most of us only think about 5.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

If a rod is 1/2" diameter and moved sideways 1/2" it travels .500
If a rod is 3/4" diameter and moved sideways 3/4" it travels .750
If a rod is 7/8" diameter and moved sideways 7/8" it travels .875
The OP is about full and 1/2 tips of movement.. not contact size.

If a cue tip is 11.5 diameter, and it moves sideways 11.5, the 3mm contact point
wouldn't be as far from CB center as a 13.5 diameter cue tip moved 13.5mm, or
as the OP shows tip movement. The tip contact size will remain the same size.

.

Scott Lee · Jun 3, 2017

You can quote whatever you want. The thread is about a standard definition of "tips of english", which is defined as 3mm or 1/8". This was proven by Bob Jewett's Jacksonville Experiment. Regardless of tip size, or where on the tip you contact the CB (or the speed of the stroke), the contact patch remains constant at 3mm, making 3 tips up or down, or right or left as the maximum before miscues become likely. It would be nice if this became the standard definition, as opposed to what's shown in the diagram. Feel free to think about it anyway you choose.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Ralph Kramden said:
If a rod is 1/2" diameter and moved sideways 1/2" it travels .500
If a rod is 3/4" diameter and moved sideways 3/4" it travels .750
If a rod is 7/8" diameter and moved sideways 7/8" it travels .875
The OP is about full and 1/2 tips of movement.. not contact size.

If a cue tip is 11.5 diameter, and it moves sideways 11.5, the 3mm contact point
wouldn't be as far from CB center as a 13.5 diameter cue tip moved 13.5mm, or
as the OP shows tip movement. The tip contact points will remain the same size.

.

Ralph Kramden · Jun 3, 2017

Scott Lee said:
You can quote whatever you want. The thread is about a standard definition of "tips of english", which is defined as 3mm or 1/8". This was proven by Bob Jewett's Jacksonville Experiment. Regardless of tip size, or where on the tip you contact the CB (or the speed of the stroke), the contact patch remains constant at 3mm, making 3 tips up or down, or right or left as the maximum before miscues become likely. It would be nice if this became the standard definition, as opposed to what's shown in the diagram. Feel free to think about it anyway you choose.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

I THINK you didn't read what I wrote

.

mikepage · Jun 3, 2017

nibrobus said:
Hi guys, came across this diagram (taken from http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/English.html) showing how many tips of english translates on the cue ball. I never really thought that people might have a different definition of what "1 tip" of english actually means. Turns out what I thought was "1 tip" is actually "1/2 tip" on the diagram. [...]

All people who are serious about communicating pool concepts clearly should just throw the phrase "tips of english" in the trash.

Replace it with percent of maximum

JRusso · Jun 3, 2017

nibrobus said:
Actually, now that I look at the diagram again my definition of tips would be 1 tip is at the 1/2 tip mark, while 2 tips is the 1.5 tip mark. I guess I really don't have an idea how many tips I'm applying lol.

That's how is see it too, for what it's worth.

pt109 · Jun 3, 2017

mikepage said:
All people who are serious about communicating pool concepts clearly should just throw the phrase "tips of english" in the trash.

Replace it with percent of maximum

That's what I tend to do....I range from center ball to the miscue zone with % in between.
....although sometimes I tell 'em to load it....or just a hair.

12squared · Jun 3, 2017

mikepage said:
All people who are serious about communicating pool concepts clearly should just throw the phrase "tips of english" in the trash.

Replace it with percent of maximum

This is a good way to look at it. I however have always thought of tips of english to be how far the cueball travels left or right after contact of the rail.

Example on a billiard table would be 1-tip = 1 diamond spread the long way and 1/2 diamond spread the short way and so forth. To me this holds true whether you're using the clock system or staying at center ball to create the english. Results is what matters and I found this the easiest way to actually use tips of english.

A pool table spreads a little further so you must factor that in.

Sorry if I went off rail in this thread, but I'm old.

Dave

AtLarge · Jun 3, 2017

For a 2 1/4" pool ball and a cue tip in a normal range of diameters for pool cues, the tip circles in those diagrams in post #1 are way too small -- they'd be only about 8½ mm tips.

mikepage · Jun 4, 2017

12squared said:
This is a good way to look at it. I however have always thought of tips of english to be how far the cueball travels left or right after contact of the rail.

Example on a billiard table would be 1-tip = 1 diamond spread [...]

My point is that for a WORD to be useful requires both

(1) The USER associates an unambiguous idea to the word
(2) The TARGET person attaches the same unambiguous idea to the word

What I see when this subject comes is several responders addressing (1). There is no reasonable chance we are ever going to achieve (2) with this word. So we should stop trying.

dr_dave · Jun 5, 2017

AtLarge said:
For a 2 1/4" pool ball and a cue tip in a normal range of diameters for pool cues, the tip circles in those diagrams in post #1 are way too small -- they'd be only about 8½ mm tips.

Thank you for pointing this out.

FYI, I updated the diagram using a 12mm tip.

Here it is:

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave · Jun 5, 2017

mikepage said:
All people who are serious about communicating pool concepts clearly should just throw the phrase "tips of english" in the trash.

Replace it with percent of maximum

I agree 100%! :grin-square:

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave · Jun 5, 2017

Scott Lee said:
Regardless of tip size, the size of the contact patch between the tip and CB remains at 3mm or 1/8".

Scott,

FYI, this is not correct. The size of the contact patch varies with tip hardness, tip shape, and shot speed.

You can use whatever definition of "tips of english" you want, but IMO "the size of the contact patch for an average-speed shot with an average-hardness tip of typical curvature" is not an ideal definition for "tip."

Regards,
Dave

Standard Definition for Tips of English

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