Canadian Pool Hall Gamblers Who Stormed the UK Snooker Scene

J

JAM

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Though the game never fully caught on in Canada, there are a faithful few who still revere the snooker stars of the '80s, like Cliff Thorburn, who elevated a pub game into televised sport. Snooker in Canada experienced the same problems as pool is experiencing today in USA.

Here's a cute article, a great read which Jim Wych is quoted in: The Canadian Pool Hall Gamblers Who Stormed the UK Snooker Scene

Today, snooker champion Cliff Thorburn meets up with snooker ace Kirk Stevens every few weeks, chumming it up at Wych's billiards hangout, The Corner Bank, in Scarborough, Ontario.

Up until 30 years ago, snooker tables dominated pool halls across Canada. But unlike the UK, which had long-established pro and amateur circuits, Canada didn't have the same level of infrastructure for organized play. Tournaments didn't offer much prize money, so players gambled, traveling from city to city looking for matches in order to earn their next meal. Tensions can flare when money is involved, even in a game steeped in its own etiquette. Man, does this sound familiar or what?

"Cliff Thorburn and Alex Higgins couldn't have been more different, on the billiards table and off it. Thorburn, the mustachioed Canadian snooker player, was known for his soft-spoken manner and slow, methodical style of play that earned him The Grinder nickname. Hurricane Higgins, on the other hand, was a brash, braggadocious Irishman whose blistering offensive game was only matched by his volatile offstage antics. Several weeks after beating Thorburn in the 1983 Irish Open, Higgins crossed paths with his rival at a local bar and couldn't help but make his presence known. 'You're a Canadian c***, Thorburn,' he jeered. 'And you're shit at snooker!' :grin-square:

"Thorburn, sick of his guff, punched Higgins square in the jaw and knocked him off his feet. Immediately, the two were restrained as people begged for them to settle down. Seemingly cooled off, Thorburn and Higgins were about to shake hands when Thorburn pulled Higgins in and kicked him in the groin." :shocked:

Vintage snooker video, first 147 at the Crucible by Thorburn --> HERE

From left to right: Cliff Thorburn, Kirk Stevens, and Bill Werbeniuk.
 

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J

JAM

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
OMG! :D

The road was where Thorburn met "Big Bill" Werbeniuk. Born in 1947, the hulking Winnipegger grew up in Pop's Billiards, a pool hall owned by his father, Shorty Werbeniuk, whom Bill once described as "one of the biggest [crooks] in Canada" who "committed armed robberies, peddled drugs, every larceny in the language." By age 12, the junior Werbeniuk was already betting money on his matches against grown men, and winning. Also skilled at nine-ball pool, backgammon, chess, and poker, Werbeniuk was a natural gambler and constantly propositioned money matches amongst friends, chuckling the whole time as he'd snatch away their cash.

"He [was] always trying to get his hands in our pockets," Thorburn recalled.

The two lived out of shelters, bus stations, and motels across the country in the 1960s, eking out a living with the skills of their misspent youth. But the pay wasn't exactly steady. Thorburn could rake in $6,000 a night, only to lose it all gambling the next day. But life on the road seasoned the Canadians, who learned to perform under pressure. By the early 70s, Thorburn had earned the reputation of being the man to beat in Canada—or, more fittingly, the man you couldn't beat.

Cliff Thorburn (middle) and Bill Werbeniuk with an awesome T-shirt.
 

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J

JAM

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
When Keith McCready was 17 years old, in the '70s, Cliff Thorburn was in USA at the Billiard Palace in Belflower, Califorinia. Thorburn was snooker champion at the time.

The table at Billiard Palace was a 5-by-10 snooker table with real tight pockets. Thorburn was used to playing snooker with bigger pockets and a bigger table, according to Keith. :grin:

They ended up playing Payball, where you race 6 balls up, shoot them in rotation, and the 6 ball is the last ball. You get paid double on the 6 ball. They were play for $20 and $40 and $30 and $60, which was quite a lot of money back then.

Thorburn ended up blowing about $1,200 when the dust settled. He had to quit and couldn't fade Keith on that Billiard Palace snooker table. Keith said he was a gentleman and that it was just a different game for him, and at that time, Keith was one of the best in the country on THAT table. Keith said he "robbed him." <-- Keith's words, not mine. :wink:

Ka-ching! Not bad for a 17-year-old. :cool:

Keith said Larry Lisciotti, Cole Dickson, Denny Searcy, and Keith were the best players at that time on that table. :)
 
alstl

alstl

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
JAM said:
Though the game never fully caught on in Canada, there are a faithful few who still revere the snooker stars of the '80s, like Cliff Thorburn, who elevated a pub game into televised sport. Snooker in Canada experienced the same problems as pool is experiencing today in USA.

Here's a cute article, a great read which Jim Wych is quoted in: The Canadian Pool Hall Gamblers Who Stormed the UK Snooker Scene

Today, snooker champion Cliff Thorburn meets up with snooker ace Kirk Stevens every few weeks, chumming it up at Wych's billiards hangout, The Corner Bank, in Scarborough, Ontario.

Up until 30 years ago, snooker tables dominated pool halls across Canada. But unlike the UK, which had long-established pro and amateur circuits, Canada didn't have the same level of infrastructure for organized play. Tournaments didn't offer much prize money, so players gambled, traveling from city to city looking for matches in order to earn their next meal. Tensions can flare when money is involved, even in a game steeped in its own etiquette. Man, does this sound familiar or what?

"Cliff Thorburn and Alex Higgins couldn't have been more different, on the billiards table and off it. Thorburn, the mustachioed Canadian snooker player, was known for his soft-spoken manner and slow, methodical style of play that earned him The Grinder nickname. Hurricane Higgins, on the other hand, was a brash, braggadocious Irishman whose blistering offensive game was only matched by his volatile offstage antics. Several weeks after beating Thorburn in the 1983 Irish Open, Higgins crossed paths with his rival at a local bar and couldn't help but make his presence known. 'You're a Canadian c***, Thorburn,' he jeered. 'And you're shit at snooker!' :grin-square:

"Thorburn, sick of his guff, punched Higgins square in the jaw and knocked him off his feet. Immediately, the two were restrained as people begged for them to settle down. Seemingly cooled off, Thorburn and Higgins were about to shake hands when Thorburn pulled Higgins in and kicked him in the groin." :shocked:

Vintage snooker video, first 147 at the Crucible by Thorburn --> HERE

From left to right: Cliff Thorburn, Kirk Stevens, and Bill Werbeniuk.
Click to expand...

What the pool world needs is more purple velvet suits like Werbeniuk is wearing.
 
G

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
There were a couple other Canucks who came south for pool action. One was Frank "Bionic" Jonic and Gerry Watson. Saw both these guys on their trips thru the Midwest. Got to know Watson a little bit. Super guy and one STRONG player. When he was in N. Mexico he got help from HOF'r Jimmy Moore and after that his game was really stout and he went on to play the Camel Tour. Frank beat a guy up in Kansas out of a farm. The guy actually "bet the ranch" and lost.
 
Z

Z-Nole

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
There was a Canadian snooker player who came to Tallahassee in the late 80’s and played in a couple of tournaments. He played with the snooker cue and bridge and claimed to be a champion but I have no idea if that’s true. I think his name was Joe Lawrence, has anyone heard of him? He played pretty sporty.
 
G

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Z-Nole said:
There was a Canadian snooker player who came to Tallahassee in the late 80’s and played in a couple of tournaments. He played with the snooker cue and bridge and claimed to be a champion but I have no idea if that’s true. I think his name was Joe Lawrence, has anyone heard of him? He played pretty sporty.
Click to expand...
Joe came thru Tulsa also. One night he got beat and got so drunk he went outside and kicked-out the windshield of the car he was driving. Guy could really play if he was straight.
 
stevelomako

stevelomako

Cash. I uses cash beech.
Silver Member
Z-Nole said:
There was a Canadian snooker player who came to Tallahassee in the late 80’s and played in a couple of tournaments. He played with the snooker cue and bridge and claimed to be a champion but I have no idea if that’s true. I think his name was Joe Lawrence, has anyone heard of him? He played pretty sporty.
Click to expand...

Lol. Joe used to get a little unhappy with himself at times. He'd go into the bathroom and have a talk with himself in the mirror and the guy in the mirror would beat him up quite often.

He played pretty good after a case or two of beer and I'm not exaggerating.
 
J

JAM

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Z-Nole said:
There was a Canadian snooker player who came to Tallahassee in the late 80’s and played in a couple of tournaments. He played with the snooker cue and bridge and claimed to be a champion but I have no idea if that’s true. I think his name was Joe Lawrence, has anyone heard of him? He played pretty sporty.
Click to expand...

Me and Joe at GCO in Toledo in 2004.

Between tournament matches, a bunch of us went to the horse track: Joe, Keith, me, and a few others whose names I forget.

They were all studying the Racing Form for their picks. I bet my daughter's birthday the first race, a dollar triple box, 1-2-9, and I hit. All the other guys left with empty pockets, except me. I won a fat nickel and kept it. :cool:
 

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jay helfert

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
JAM said:
When Keith McCready was 17 years old, in the '70s, Cliff Thorburn was in USA at the Billiard Palace in Belflower, Califorinia. Thorburn was snooker champion at the time.

The table at Billiard Palace was a 5-by-10 snooker table with real tight pockets. Thorburn was used to playing snooker with bigger pockets and a bigger table, according to Keith. :grin:

They ended up playing Payball, where you race 6 balls up, shoot them in rotation, and the 6 ball is the last ball. You get paid double on the 6 ball. They were play for $20 and $40 and $30 and $60, which was quite a lot of money back then.

Thorburn ended up blowing about $1,200 when the dust settled. He had to quit and couldn't fade Keith on that Billiard Palace snooker table. Keith said he was a gentleman and that it was just a different game for him, and at that time, Keith was one of the best in the country on THAT table. Keith said he "robbed him." <-- Keith's words, not mine. :wink:

Ka-ching! Not bad for a 17-year-old. :cool:

Keith said Larry Lisciotti, Cole Dickson, Denny Searcy, and Keith were the best players at that time on that table. :)
Click to expand...

That was Keith's prime, age 17-19! He may have been at his best in that short span of time. Pretty much unbeatable at 9-Ball and only the very best players like Denny, Richie, Cardone and Jimmy Reid could hang with Keith at age 18! And none of them had to like it. Pretty much they avoided playing Keith heads up and Keith had to prey on the unsuspecting hustlers (and tournament champions!) who came to L.A. or begin traveling to find games. During the 1970's it became well known that road men had to be very careful going through California. Nobody ever could get past the murderer's row of Keith, Cole, Denny, Richie and Swanee. They must have busted over a hundred road men between them! Lurking on the bar tables were all the Mexican champions plus Bakersfield Bobby and Peter Gunn. Good luck if you ran into any of these guys. Laying in the weeds were killers like Little Al and Harry the Horse, two more pool assassins. I didn't even mention Ronnie, Frisco Jack and San Jose Dick, another unbeatable triumvirate. Players like Marvin Henderson, Bob Ogburn, Jimmy Reid, Larry Lisciotti, Lou Butera and Jimmy Marino also found ways to ply their trade in California. There were a lot of poolrooms back then and every one of them had two or three local champions that would gamble, including me in Bakersfield. Grady told me once that I was in every road man's black book. :rolleyes:
 
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Michael Andros

Michael Andros

tiny balls, GIANT pockets
Silver Member
garczar said:
There were a couple other Canucks who came south for pool action. One was Frank "Bionic" Jonic and Gerry Watson. Saw both these guys on their trips thru the Midwest. Got to know Watson a little bit. Super guy and one STRONG player. When he was in N. Mexico he got help from HOF'r Jimmy Moore and after that his game was really stout and he went on to play the Camel Tour. Frank beat a guy up in Kansas out of a farm. The guy actually "bet the ranch" and lost.
Click to expand...

As long as we're on the "Canuck Snooker Champions Go South" theme, Goose ( Stan McDowell ) told a story ( that I've posted here before but it's been a while so here goes again ) about a world-class snookerite from Montreal ( I think ) who came down to the Four Seasons ( Stan and Mizerak Sr's room ) in Metuchen New Jersey to see if he could rob a few unsuspecting American players. He might've picked some other room and especially some other day, as he just happened to catch Mizerak ( Jr ), Sigel and Hopkins, all killing some time 'til they had to get to the airport to fly out to LA for the ESPN ( or maybe ABC Wide World of Sports... I'm not sure ) "Legends" pool show.

So...

"Any action in here?"

"Yeah... play some 9 ball?"

A couple grand later...

"Hmmmm... ok, so you're hitting 'em pretty sporty. I'm off. How about *you*? You want some of me?"

"Sure... some 9 ball?"

A couple *more* K later...

"Must be something in the water... yeah, you 'n me are done. How about you over there... I might as well donate what I got left. You want some?"

"Uhhhh, yeah, sure, you got me. Some 9 ball?"

So the wrap-up is, the guy dumps @ 10k to the three of them, one after another. Stan said he could only imagine what the guy told his buddies back in Montreal.

"Man, don't EVER go down to Jersey! Those guys all play like stone-cold WORLD CHAMPIONS!!!"


:yeah: :yeah: :yeah:
 
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Michael Andros

Michael Andros

tiny balls, GIANT pockets
Silver Member
jay helfert said:
That was Keith's prime, age 17-19! He may have been at his best in that short span of time. Pretty much unbeatable at 9-Ball and only the very best players like Denny, Cardone and Jimmy Reid could hang with Keith at age 18! And none of them had to like it. Pretty much they avoided playing Keith heads up and Keith had to prey on the unsuspecting hustlers (and tournament champions!) who came to L.A. or begin traveling to find games. During the 1970's it became well known that road men had to be very careful going through California. Nobody ever could get past the murderer's row of Keith, Cole, Denny and Swanee. They must have busted over a hundred road men between them! Lurking on the bar tables were all the Mexican champions plus Bakersfield Bobby and Peter Gunn. Good luck if you ran into any of these guys. Laying in the weeds were killers like Little Al and Harry the Horse, two more pool assassins. I didn't even mention Ronnie, Frisco Jack and San Jose Dick, another unbeatable triumvirate. Players like Marvin Henderson, Bob Ogburn, Jimmy Reid, Larry Lisciotti, Lou Butera and Jimmy Marino also found ways to ply their trade in California. There were a lot of poolrooms back then and every one of them had two or three local champions that would gamble, including me in Bakersfield. Grady told me once that I was in every road man's black book. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...


And that's world's gone, now... and it really breaks my heart, as stupid as that sounds. That world was a fantasy-land-come-true for a young kid who wanted nothing in this world more than just to play pool forever, listen to stories, watch, learn, play... and play. And go eat, drink a bit, and play more. When it was happening, it never occurred to me that one day, when I was old(er), there would be nothing left but the stories. I suppose I thought it would somehow last forever.
 
boyraks

boyraks

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
jay helfert said:
That was Keith's prime, age 17-19! He may have been at his best in that short span of time. Pretty much unbeatable at 9-Ball and only the very best players like Denny, Richie, Cardone and Jimmy Reid could hang with Keith at age 18! And none of them had to like it. Pretty much they avoided playing Keith heads up and Keith had to prey on the unsuspecting hustlers (and tournament champions!) who came to L.A. or begin traveling to find games. During the 1970's it became well known that road men had to be very careful going through California. Nobody ever could get past the murderer's row of Keith, Cole, Denny, Richie and Swanee. They must have busted over a hundred road men between them! Lurking on the bar tables were all the Mexican champions plus Bakersfield Bobby and Peter Gunn. Good luck if you ran into any of these guys. Laying in the weeds were killers like Little Al and Harry the Horse, two more pool assassins. I didn't even mention Ronnie, Frisco Jack and San Jose Dick, another unbeatable triumvirate. Players like Marvin Henderson, Bob Ogburn, Jimmy Reid, Larry Lisciotti, Lou Butera and Jimmy Marino also found ways to ply their trade in California. There were a lot of poolrooms back then and every one of them had two or three local champions that would gamble, including me in Bakersfield. Grady told me once that I was in every road man's black book. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...



I assume that this were the times before Parica came over.
 
T

trophycue

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Terry's billiards

JAM said:
When Keith McCready was 17 years old, in the '70s, Cliff Thorburn was in USA at the Billiard Palace in Belflower, Califorinia. Thorburn was snooker champion at the time.

The table at Billiard Palace was a 5-by-10 snooker table with real tight pockets. Thorburn was used to playing snooker with bigger pockets and a bigger table, according to Keith. :grin:

They ended up playing Payball, where you race 6 balls up, shoot them in rotation, and the 6 ball is the last ball. You get paid double on the 6 ball. They were play for $20 and $40 and $30 and $60, which was quite a lot of money back then.

Thorburn ended up blowing about $1,200 when the dust settled. He had to quit and couldn't fade Keith on that Billiard Palace snooker table. Keith said he was a gentleman and that it was just a different game for him, and at that time, Keith was one of the best in the country on THAT table. Keith said he "robbed him." <-- Keith's words, not mine. :wink:

Ka-ching! Not bad for a 17-year-old. :cool:

Keith said Larry Lisciotti, Cole Dickson, Denny Searcy, and Keith were the best players at that time on that table. :)
Click to expand...

I had the pleasure of being good buds with Kirk and Cliff at Terry's billiards in Scarborough . From time to time americans would come through and Thorburn tortured them every time , at any game . One fellow in particular was very stubborn , but finally gave up to Cliff on the snooker table . Then insisted on playing straight pool on the small snooker table . Cliff ran I believe 5 or 6 racks , and the guy threw the money on the table , and told everybody to FO . Never to return . Still good friends with these guys, and we always talk about the 70's being the best times .
 
Shawn Armstrong

Shawn Armstrong

AZB deceased - stopped posting 5/13/2022
Silver Member
Michael Andros said:
As long as we're on the "Canuck Snooker Champions Go South" theme, Goose ( Stan McDowell ) told a story ( that I've posted here before but it's been a while so here goes again ) about a world-class snookerite from Montreal ( I think ) who came down to the Four Seasons ( Stan and Mizerak Sr's room ) in Metuchen New Jersey to see if he could rob a few unsuspecting American players. He might've picked some other room and especially some other day, as he just happened to catch Mizerak ( Jr ), Sigel and Hopkins, all killing some time 'til they had to get to the airport to fly out to LA for the ESPN ( or maybe ABC Wide World of Sports... I'm not sure ) "Legends" pool show.

So...

"Any action in here?"

"Yeah... play some 9 ball?"

A couple grand later...

"Hmmmm... ok, so you're hitting 'em pretty sporty. I'm off. How about *you*? You want some of me?"

"Sure... some 9 ball?"

A couple *more* K later...

"Must be something in the water... yeah, you 'n me are done. How about you over there... I might as well donate what I got left. You want some?"

"Uhhhh, yeah, sure, you got me. Some 9 ball?"

So the wrap-up is, the guy dumps @ 10k to the three of them, one after another. Stan said he could only imagine what the guy told his buddies back in Montreal.

"Man, don't EVER go down to Jersey! Those guys all play like stone-cold WORLD CHAMPIONS!!!


:yeah: :yeah: :yeah:
Click to expand...

That's a Gerry Watson story. It was in his book.
 
G

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Gerry had one of the strangest/strongest "get 'em outta their chair" moves i've ever seen. He had a piece of surgical tubing that he'd tie to his forearm and bicep and act like it was some sort of stroke training aid. You talk about an action magnet. After about 5-10 minutes of this little charade someone would ALWAYS walk over and ask him to play. BIG mistake usually. GW could REALLY dab it and had that "dial-a-gear" ability to play as good as he needed to. Super cool guy. I found him on FB and msg. him from time to time. He does lessons up in the Toronto area i believe.
 
Michael Andros

Michael Andros

tiny balls, GIANT pockets
Silver Member
garczar said:
Gerry had one of the strangest/strongest "get 'em outta their chair" moves i've ever seen. He had a piece of surgical tubing that he'd tie to his forearm and bicep and act like it was some sort of stroke training aid. You talk about an action magnet. After about 5-10 minutes of this little charade someone would ALWAYS walk over and ask him to play. BIG mistake usually. GW could REALLY dab it and had that "dial-a-gear" ability to play as good as he needed to. Super cool guy. I found him on FB and msg. him from time to time. He does lessons up in the Toronto area i believe.
Click to expand...

That's one of the things I miss most about pool rooms from back then. The moves. The curves tossed. The total, complete and utter BULLS**T on a minute-by-minute basis. Talk about life-lessons? Shheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeittttttttttttttt. 4 years of undergrad, a Masters, then a PhD! All at once!

Them was the days, yessir.

Them

Was

The

Days

.
 
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