Frozen Cueball to object ball

KMRUNOUT · Mar 24, 2019

BRussell said:
I don't like the rule that 8 on the break wins, because it's inconsistent with the rules of 8-ball, that you have to make all of your group and then the 8.

The rule that 9 on the break wins is fine because it's consistent with the rules of 9 ball. I see lots of restrictions, like about which pocket the 9 can go in on the break. Again, inconsistent with the rules of the game.

It is consistent with the rule that the rack must be frozen as tightly as possible. Particular gaps in the rack make the 9 go directly into one of the bottom corners. The rules of 9 ball did not intend a win based on poor racking.

Something to consider...

KMRUNOUT

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KMRUNOUT · Mar 24, 2019

jay helfert said:
Let me give you one more example of why this is a bad rule. The cue ball is frozen to the object ball and you shoot directly through it. What happens? The cue ball follows on a path in the same direction as the object ball, at almost the same speed. I contend that this has to be a 'push' through the object ball to make this happen. IMO that is one BIG foul! Any so called rules official who wants to make that shot legal should not be on a rules committee for Pool. They belong on a rules committee for Checkers.

The problem with your position here is that the physics of the situation were not known at one time. Now they are. And the physics disagree with what you've said here. So should the rules reflect reality, or nostalgia? I'm fine with it either way, but I'd certainly prefer the rules reflect the most up to date knowledge, and prioritize science over "that's how we always used to do it".

KMRUNOUT

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MattPoland · Mar 24, 2019

Patrick Johnson said:
I guess the CB is prevented from moving forward at all (by the backspin), resulting in a push rather than a double hit. I can't see the video because I keep getting this error at Dr. Dave's site...

View attachment 516073

Anybody know why or how to fix this?

pj
chgo

I would either reboot your phone/computer or try a different browser Safari/Chrome/IE/Edge.

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Patrick Johnson · Mar 24, 2019

MattPoland said:
I would either reboot your phone/computer or try a different browser Safari/Chrome/IE/Edge.

Hmm... It works on my phone with Safari; not on my laptop with IE (for quite some time now). Might have to finally cave and switch to Chrome.

pj
chgo

P.S. Just rebooted the laptop and tried with IE again - nope.

goettlicher · Mar 24, 2019

The Frozen Ball Rule was introduced in 1978.
Became a WPA rule in the early 80's.

There was lot's of fire power on that particular Rules Committee.

One of the best rules we have ever made!

randyg

Patrick Johnson · Mar 24, 2019

MattPoland said:
I would either reboot your phone/computer or try a different browser Safari/Chrome/IE/Edge.

Chrome did it. Thanks.

pj <- so 21st century
chgo

jay helfert · Mar 24, 2019

KMRUNOUT said:
The problem with your position here is that the physics of the situation were not known at one time. Now they are. And the physics disagree with what you've said here. So should the rules reflect reality, or nostalgia? I'm fine with it either way, but I'd certainly prefer the rules reflect the most up to date knowledge, and prioritize science over "that's how we always used to do it".

KMRUNOUT

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KM, I don't disagree that there is not a double hit on this shot. I never said there was. You can definitely push or stroke through a shot like this and the cue only contacts the cue ball one time. My opinion remains that such a shot (shooting straight at and directly though the frozen object ball) should not be a legal shot. It is still not allowed in most major One Pocket tournaments and was never allowed in any Straight Pool or 9-Ball events that I ever ref'd in. Frankly I'm surprised if they are allowing shots like this now. I think that is a step backwards in the integrity of the game. And this is not about nostalgia. If I was nostalgic I would be lobbying to go back to "Two Shot Shoot-out" 9-Ball and Ten Ball, with all balls spotting after a foul, and you had to shoot from behind the line. That was definitely a better way to play 9-Ball, giving a greater advantage to the better player. No need for call shot in matches using these rules.

jay helfert · Mar 24, 2019

goettlicher said:
The Frozen Ball Rule was introduced in 1978.
Became a WPA rule in the early 80's.

There was lot's of fire power on that particular Rules Committee.

One of the best rules we have ever made!

randyg

Randy, the WPA had little to no influence over U.S. based tournaments until the 90's. And they still have little to no influence over many tournaments held world wide. By the way, the rules committee for the WPA were all snooker players originally. Did you know that?

And while you're referring to them and their ability to sanction tournaments (for a cut of the action), please tell us how they helped players get paid when the promoters of WPA sanctioned events failed to pay out the "guaranteed" prize money.

garczar · Mar 24, 2019

jay helfert said:
Randy, the WPA had little to no influence over U.S. based tournaments until the 90's. And they still have little to no influence over many tournaments held world wide. By the way, the rules committee for the WPA were all snooker players originally. Did you know that?

And while you're referring to them and their ability to sanction tournaments (for a cut of the action), please tell us how they have helped players get paid when the promoters of their sanctioned events failed to pay out the "guaranteed" prize money.

WPA is a paper tiger. I loved it when Barry Hearn told them to go piss up a rope. How many players in the US know of their existence much less care what they have to say?? As for promoting events, anybody sweat the last few World 9b events? Like watching paint dry at a funeral. If it wasn't for Mark G. and Predator do you think the World 10b would have been resurrected?? Seriously doubt it.

KMRUNOUT · Mar 24, 2019

jay helfert said:
KM, I don't disagree that there is not a double hit on this shot. I never said there was. You can definitely push or stroke through a shot like this and the cue only contacts the cue ball one time. My opinion remains that such a shot (shooting straight at and directly though the frozen object ball) should not be a legal shot. It is still not allowed in most major One Pocket tournaments and was never allowed in any Straight Pool or 9-Ball events that I ever ref'd in. Frankly I'm surprised if they are allowing shots like this now. I think that is a step backwards in the integrity of the game. And this is not about nostalgia. If I was nostalgic I would be lobbying to go back to "Two Shot Shoot-out" 9-Ball and Ten Ball, with all balls spotting after a foul, and you had to shoot from behind the line. That was definitely a better way to play 9-Ball, giving a greater advantage to the better player. No need for call shot in matches using these rules.

Ok, I hear you. However what I'm not hearing is *why* you believe it negatively affects the integrity of the game. If you agree the shot is not a double hit, then it becomes very ambiguous what principle you are basing the integrity of the game. To me, integrity means "matches reality". As such, I see this rule as a step forward for the integrity of the game. Now the rules better reflect what is actually happening.

I can certainly understand how in 14-1 or 1p why people may not like the rule.

KMRUNOUT

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jay helfert · Mar 24, 2019

KMRUNOUT said:
Ok, I hear you. However what I'm not hearing is *why* you believe it negatively affects the integrity of the game. If you agree the shot is not a double hit, then it becomes very ambiguous what principle you are basing the integrity of the game. To me, integrity means "matches reality". As such, I see this rule as a step forward for the integrity of the game. Now the rules better reflect what is actually happening.

I can certainly understand how in 14-1 or 1p why people may not like the rule.

KMRUNOUT

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Once again, it is commonplace in this country to ignore WPA/BCA rules! There are as many different sets of rules as there are tournaments, each one based on what the promoter wants and the tournament director agrees to. This specific rule in question is pretty much only used in BCA sanctioned amateur events and the rare WPA event held on these shores. Even then, that does not mean the promoter has to abide by them if he so chooses.

I got into "why" I didn't like this rule on my earlier posts on this thread. Suffice to say that allowing such shots opens the door to some pretty crazy stuff taking place on the table. You might be surprised what a skilled player can do if he is allowed to shoot directly through a frozen ball. If we ever meet in person I will be glad to show you just one shot that would be an eye opener, and you wouldn't be able to tell me if I made a good hit or not.

Patrick Johnson · Mar 24, 2019

jay helfert said:
If we ever meet in person I will be glad to show you just one shot that would be an eye opener, and you wouldn't be able to tell me if I made a good hit or not.

Can you describe one or two?

pj
chgo

jay helfert · Mar 25, 2019

Patrick Johnson said:
Can you describe one or two?

pj
chgo

Object ball frozen to the rail one diamond away from the corner pocket. Cue ball frozen to the object ball at a 45-60 degree angle. I can shoot the object ball straight into the corner pocket with one clean stroke.

Cue ball frozen to the object ball in the middle of the table. I can bank the object ball one rail off the end rail into either corner pocket, left or right, if I can shoot straight through it. With some practice I may be able to get the cue ball to follow it in. I've done it before.

Neither of these shots would be bad hits according to this rule, as the cue tip only contacts the cue ball once each time.

MattPoland · Mar 25, 2019

For funsies...

https://www.facebook.com/565723230466363/videos/412368606164411?sfns=mo

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Pete · Mar 25, 2019

Cornerman said:
I know this is gonna sound confusing, but:

On a frozen pair, you can shoot with a normal stroke straight through. You cannot push straight through. Pushing is an illegal stroke. Stroking straight through with a normal stroke is legal.

Pushing the cueball, regardless if it’s frozen to an object ball or not, is illegal. Decades of discussions, people still have a confusion on what the term “pushing” means for strokes. It really has nothing to do with any object ball (the APA and Bob Byrne have confused players for decades). It’s only about tip and cueball interaction. You cannot push the cueball (like a broom).

Freddie <~~~ and here we go

Thanks.

When I said push I meant stroke straight through.

jay helfert · Mar 25, 2019

MattPoland said:
For funsies...

https://www.facebook.com/565723230466363/videos/412368606164411?sfns=mo

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Thanks for that. This is the way we played it in pro tournaments for decades! It is also used to this day at DCC. I like this way of playing this shot a lot more than allowing the stuff that you can do under the WPA/BCA rules. Shooting straight through shots like this are a joke imo. That ain't pool! That belongs in a game at a Carnival side show.

Bob Jewett · Mar 25, 2019

jay helfert said:
Thanks for that. This is the way we played it in pro tournaments for decades! It is also used to this day at DCC. I like this way of playing this shot a lot more than allowing the stuff that you can do under the WPA/BCA rules. Shooting straight through shots like this are a joke imo. That ain't pool! That belongs in a game at a Carnival side show.

But Sigel shot straight through. He was just elevated a little. He was not elevated 45 degrees.

goettlicher · Mar 25, 2019

jay helfert said:
Randy, the WPA had little to no influence over U.S. based tournaments until the 90's. And they still have little to no influence over many tournaments held world wide. By the way, the rules committee for the WPA were all snooker players originally. Did you know that?

And while you're referring to them and their ability to sanction tournaments (for a cut of the action), please tell us how they helped players get paid when the promoters of WPA sanctioned events failed to pay out the "guaranteed" prize money.

Yes, we knew that. Thats why we were asked to write the USA Pool Rules.
Willie Mosconi, Jimmy Caras, Belinda Beardon, Jerry Briesath, Gary Benson and many more over the years were on this committee with me.

Now you are picking on the BCA. They did a good job for many years. The BCA is not an insurance company! They did what they could to keep the pool players alive. The real job of the BCA was to take care of the Retailers, Manufactuers and keep the industry together.

randyg

Patrick Johnson · Mar 25, 2019

jay helfert said:
Object ball frozen to the rail one diamond away from the corner pocket. Cue ball frozen to the object ball at a 45-60 degree angle. I can shoot the object ball straight into the corner pocket with one clean stroke.

I can make this shot too, but not without obviously pushing the CB. I'm betting the same applies to you.

Neither of these shots would be bad hits according to this rule, as the cue tip only contacts the cue ball once each time.

The cue tip only contacts the cue ball once for a push shot. It's still obvious and illegal. Surely you, an experienced tournament ref, know this...?

pj
chgo

DynoDan · Mar 25, 2019

jay helfert said:
Object ball frozen to the rail one diamond away from the corner pocket. Cue ball frozen to the object ball at a 45-60 degree angle. I can shoot the object ball straight into the corner pocket with one clean stroke.

A common exhibition ‘trick shot’ (at 90 degrees), but, still an illegal ‘push shot’. Trick shot artists entertain spectators with many ‘illegal’ gag shots. I always liked the one where a target moneyball hanger is blocked from the ball-in-play by a close/cockeyed obstructing pair of OBs, setup in such a way that no combination on it is possible, and the shooter quickly jabs the cue through the pack and drops the moneyball so quickly that the illegal second cuetip strike on it isn’t noticed.

jay helfert said:

Cue ball frozen to the object ball in the middle of the table. I can bank the object ball one rail off the end rail into either corner pocket, left or right, if I can shoot straight through it.

Click to expand...

A perfectly legal ‘throw’ shot. Easier when shot softly and the balls are dirty.

Click to expand...

Frozen Cueball to object ball

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