Max Spin... and tip hardness

nineballsafety8 · Dec 10, 2014

People often pose the question, or statement that "X model tip" will produce the maximum amount of spin on the cueball.

I have come to the conclusion that your tip hardness has little to no affect on the amount of spin you can put on the cueball. There are factors that contribute to how forgiving a certain tip is when applying max amounts of spin. However, I personally use an UltraSkin HH... the tip that some people are using as a break cue tip.

I have the HH on my every day playing cue, and love the way it plays... and I have no issues with putting as much spin as I like on the cueball.

This argument can be made for soft tips as well. You are capable of putting whatever amount of spin on the cue ball that you stroke and accuracy of point of impact will allow.

Here is a video of a draw shot that I posted in a different thread, but it is proof that a very hard tip is still more than capable of massive amounts of spin.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtrbXzAg3Uk

dr_dave · Dec 10, 2014

nineballsafety8 said:
People often pose the question, or statement that "X model tip" will produce the maximum amount of spin on the cueball.

I have come to the conclusion that your tip hardness has little to no affect on the amount of spin you can put on the cueball.

Good conclusion. I agree.

As long as the tip holds chalk, the hardness has no practical effect on maximum spin. For more info, see:

cue tip hardness effects

miscue limit

Also, per the following video, the type of chalk really doesn't make a difference (assuming you chalk before each shot). For more info, see:

NV F.1 - Pool Chalk Experiment - Does the brand really make a difference? (No.)

Also, per the following video, the tip has an insignificant effect on CB deflection (squirt):

NV D.15 - Cue and Tip Testing for Cue Ball Deflection (Squirt)

Also, the amount of CB deflection has practically no effect on maximum spin. See:

(not) getting more spin with an LD shaft

Enjoy,
Dave

DAVE_M · Dec 10, 2014

In my experimentation, I've come to the conclusion that tip hardness does have an effect on spin, but the tip will only have maximum energy transfer if the player has a good stroke. A soft tip feels like it helps the cueball spin more, but the player is not transferring the maximum amount of energy in each shot. A phenolic tip will transfer the most amount of energy during a break shot. If the cueball is hit off center during a break shot, a larger amount of energy will be transferred than say a routine draw shot. Players should play with what they feel comfortable with. I prefer to play with Tiger Snipers that are worn down. I didn't find out what hardness they were, until after I discovered I liked the hit and feel.

dr_dave · Dec 10, 2014

DAVE_M said:
In my experimentation, I've come to the conclusion that tip hardness does have an effect on spin.

This can definitely be the case for a draw shot if you consider the amount of spin the CB has when it reaches the OB. For a given stroke, a hard tip will impart more speed to the CB and less backspin will be lost due to drag on the way to the OB. For more info, see:

cue tip efficiency

Regards,
Dave

King T · Dec 10, 2014

I'm not so sure?

I don't want to disagree with Dr Dave, you cant rich that way! But I have a slightly difference experience.

I have used a Tiger medium tip for 15yrs and I have only changed from that twice when I could not find one to replace the worn one with. That same scenario came up last week when I chipped the side of my tiger tip and had to switch to something else to continue the match.

I went with a soft tip because I was told it was the closest to a Tiger Medium, not so.
The soft tip spins the cue ball far more on many shots? I'm playing on the same table, with the same cue and the same balls, yet I'm getting a very different result.

I'm not sure if I am going to stay with the softer tip, I don't have the same feel on the shots, but I am getting around the table better on some other shots.

BigNBeefY · Dec 10, 2014

I also play with hard tips...currently a Zan hard and a G2 hard on both of my playing shafts. Once you get used to a harder playing tip it offers pretty tremendous advantages for those of us who dont play perfect shape. Minimal effort going 3 rails also very easy to draw and follow. It allows you always gently stroke the ball as opposed to overswinging. I would recommend a harder tip to anyone looking to anyone that wants to make seemingly difficult shots a whole lot easier

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using Tapatalk 2

bdorman · Dec 10, 2014

Just for grins I often run out a rack with my break cue (Samarsa tip). I don't particularly like how a cue feels with a hard tip, but there's no noticible difference in the amount of spin.

Buckzapper · Dec 10, 2014

I love to load the ball with juice,
To see it dance and spin.
I get 8 or 9 rails sometimes
It helps me get a win.

I spin it hard with outside
On every hanging ball
It glides along the rails
To see what else will fall.

Mike Massey once was watching
I could tell he was impressed
My 29 ounce cue and me
Was put to every test.

Whitey every now and then
Will loft into the air
And on a nearby table
It will land with reckless care.

My powerful big stroke
Isn’t welcome at the hall.
I left to many cue ball dents
All across the sheetrock wall.

I want to join the league
And show the guys my stuff
But the guy in charge of APA
Said I really was too much.

Cliff

Allen Brown · Dec 10, 2014

QUOTE=Buckzapper;5000744]I love to load the ball with juice,
To see it dance and spin.
I get 8 or 9 rails sometimes
It helps me get a win.

I spin it hard with outside
On every hanging ball
It glides along the rails
To see what else will fall.

Mike Massey once was watching
I could tell he was impressed
My 29 ounce cue and me
Was put to every test.

Whitey every now and then
Will loft into the air
And on a nearby table
It will land with reckless care.

My powerful big stroke
Isn’t welcome at the hall.
I left to many cue ball dents
All across the sheetrock wall.

I want to join the league
And show the guys my stuff
But the guy in charge of APA
Said I really was too much.

Cliff[/QUOTE]

Now that right there is some funny stuff.:rotflmao1::rotflmao1:

ENGLISH! · Dec 10, 2014

Duplicate. Sorry.

ENGLISH! · Dec 10, 2014

As has been eluded by a few, the different tips will transfer different amounts of 'energy' or force or speed to the ball.

With that, the grab for a certain amount of off from center hit also differs.

So...it comes down to a spin to speed ratio or a speed to spin ratio.

It is MHO from my 48 years of playing with english since I was 13 years old that a soft tip will yield more spin for the same 'force' of stroke. IMHO a soft tip yields more spin per the same speed that the cue ball gets from the stroke.

Can a hard tip put as much spin on the ball? Yes, but to do so it will also put more speed on the ball or...it will require more offset to get a similar speed to spin ratio & that brings a whole different set of squirt dynamics into play.

Naturally all of the above are just my humble opinions.

Best to Everyone,
Rick

Timothy Rose · Dec 10, 2014

ENGLISH! said:
As has been eluded by a few, the different tips will transfer different amounts of 'energy' or force or speed to the ball.

With that, the grab for a certain amount of off from center hit also differs.

So...it comes down to a spin to speed ratio or a speed to spin ratio.

It is MHO from my 48 years of playing with english since I was 13 years old that a soft tip will yield more spin for the same 'force' of stroke. IMHO a soft tip yields more spin per the same speed that the cue ball gets form the stroke.

Can a hard tip put as much spin on the ball? Yes, but to do so it will also put more speed on the ball or...it will require more offset to get a similar speed to spin ratio & that brings a whole different set of squirt into play.

Naturally all of the above are just my humble opinions.

Best to Everyone,
Rick

i was just wondering how long it takes a soft tip to become a hard tip?

The Renfro · Dec 10, 2014

ENGLISH! said:
As has been eluded by a few, the different tips will transfer different amounts of 'energy' or force or speed to the ball.

With that, the grab for a certain amount of off from center hit also differs.

So...it comes down to a spin to speed ratio or a speed to spin ratio.

It is MHO from my 48 years of playing with english since I was 13 years old that a soft tip will yield more spin for the same 'force' of stroke. IMHO a soft tip yields more spin per the same speed that the cue ball gets form the stroke.

Can a hard tip put as much spin on the ball? Yes, but to do so it will also put more speed on the ball or...it will require more offset to get a similar speed to spin ratio & that brings a whole different set of squirt into play.

Naturally all of the above are just my humble opinions.

Best to Everyone,
Rick

Pretty much nailed it......

Kevin Lindstrom · Dec 10, 2014

Three cushion billiard play requires a lot of spin and if I am not mistaken most if not all of these players use a soft tip. Can someone explain this to me?

Thanks

ENGLISH! · Dec 10, 2014

The Renfro said:
Pretty much nailed it......

Thanks Chris.

ENGLISH! · Dec 10, 2014

[/QUOTE]

Kevin Lindstrom said:
Three cushion billiard play requires a lot of spin and if I am not mistaken most if not all of these players use a soft tip. Can someone explain this to me?

Thanks

Kevin,

I thought I just did.

Basically one can get more spin with less speed using a soft tip or...with less offset than a hard tip.

To get the same spin/speed ratio a hard tip requires more offset from center & that brings in more cue ball squirt & a whole different shot line.

In three cushion billiards it's ALL about controlling the cue ball...as it really is with most if not all 'pool' games.

Best to You,
Rick

ENGLISH! · Dec 10, 2014

Timothy Rose said:
i was just wondering how long it takes a soft tip to become a hard tip?

I never had an Elk Master nor a Brunswick Blue Diamond turn into a hard tip.

But given the amounts of english that I played I never liked playing with a thin tip.

So...I changed them before they got to what I would call a thin tip.

CJ Wiley · Dec 10, 2014

the spin has a chance to "grab" much more than a harder tip.

You proved this to me in Tunica, I couldn't believe how much your softer tip spun the cue ball.....again, it's coming off the tip slightly slower so the spin has a chance to "grab" much more than a harder tip.

Harder tips are better for me playing 9/10 Ball, but one pocket requires more spin and finesse shots so a softer tip is probably superior (playing one pocket & 8 Ball).

The Renfro said:
Pretty much nailed it......

ENGLISH! · Dec 10, 2014

CJ Wiley said:
You proved this to me in Tunica, I couldn't believe how much your softer tip spun the cue ball.....again, it's coming off the tip slightly slower so the spin has a chance to "grab" much more than a harder tip.

Harder tips are better for me playing 9/10 Ball, but one pocket requires more spin and finesse shots so a softer tip is probably superior (playing one pocket & 8 Ball).

Hi CJ,

Isn't it amazing how much better some things can be communicated through actually experiencing it as opposed to just hearing about it or reading about it in print.

Unfortunately some don't seem to have the sensory perception to 'feel' the differences even in person. I'd hope that those would simply trust what a man of you're known playing ability says about something that you have experienced for yourself.

As Always, Best Wishes,
Rick

00john · Dec 10, 2014

dr_dave said:
Good conclusion. I agree.

As long as the tip holds chalk, the hardness has no practical effect on maximum spin. For more info, see:

cue tip hardness effects

miscue limit

Also, per the following video, the type of chalk really doesn't make a difference (assuming you chalk before each shot). For more info, see:

NV F.1 - Pool Chalk Experiment - Does the brand really make a difference? (No.)

Also, per the following video, the tip has an insignificant effect on CB deflection (squirt):

NV D.15 - Cue and Tip Testing for Cue Ball Deflection (Squirt)

Also, the amount of CB deflection has practically no effect on maximum spin. See:

(not) getting more spin with an LD shaft

Enjoy,
Dave

Wow ! consider my mind completely blown! If anybody else said that i would have dismissed it. Dr Dave , I dont know what maximum spin on a cue ball is? However my experience is a hard Kamui Will put more spin on a cue ball than a Soft Kamui?

Max Spin... and tip hardness

6ft 5" 285, hits 'em hard

Instructional Author

AzB Silver Member

Instructional Author

AzB Silver Member

Just Stopping By

Dead money

AzB Silver Member

Pool Whale

Banned

Banned

...........

Outsville.com

14.1 Addict

Banned

Banned

Banned

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION

Banned

AzB Silver Member