Max Spin... and tip hardness

poolguy4u

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Three cushion billiard play requires a lot of spin and if I am not mistaken most if not all of these players use a soft tip. Can someone explain this to me?

Thanks

:woot:



Guess those Billiard players never watched the videos

or didn't read about the 100 myths in pool.....................:shocked2:



:joyful:
 
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CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
experience is the key to overcoming this world of confusion.

Yes, it was Chris that brought this to my attention in Tunica. He put on a soft tip and I was spinning the ball off line (because it was coming off the tip slower) and over-cutting a lot of longer shots.

Yes, experience is the key to overcoming this world of confusion.


Hi CJ,

Isn't it amazing how much better some things can be communicated through actually experiencing it as opposed to just hearing about it or reading about it in print.

Unfortunately some don't seem to have the sensory perception to 'feel' the differences even in person. I'd hope that those would simply trust what a man of you're known playing ability says about something that you have experienced for yourself.

As Always, Best Wishes,
Rick
 

Neil

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
As has been eluded by a few, the different tips will transfer different amounts of 'energy' or force or speed to the ball.

With that, the grab for a certain amount of off from center hit also differs.

So...it comes down to a spin to speed ratio or a speed to spin ratio.

It is MHO from my 48 years of playing with english since I was 13 years old that a soft tip will yield more spin for the same 'force' of stroke. IMHO a soft tip yields more spin per the same speed that the cue ball gets from the stroke.

Can a hard tip put as much spin on the ball? Yes, but to do so it will also put more speed on the ball or...it will require more offset to get a similar speed to spin ratio & that brings a whole different set of squirt dynamics into play.

Naturally all of the above are just my humble opinions.

Best to Everyone,
Rick

Can't help but wonder if you even bothered to read the articles Dr. Dave posted. ??? You want to change the parameters of the test, then claim a different result means you are right. ???
 

mikepage

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Kevin,

I thought I just did.

Basically one can get more spin with less speed using a soft tip or...with less offset than a hard tip.

To get the same spin/speed ratio a hard tip requires more offset from center & that bring in more cue ball squirt & whole different shot lines.

In three cushion billiards it's ALL about controlling the cue ball...as it really is with most if not all 'pool' games.

Best to You,
Rick

I am well aware there is an entire lore surrounding this notion that a soft tip gets more action, gets higher spin-to-speed ratio---and that you can find the claim from amongst the best players in the room, the best players in AZ Billiards, pro players, experienced players...


I think this claim should enter the textbooks as a superb example of confirmation bias http://skepdic.com/confirmbias.html

Aside from the subtle contact-time effect on the offset (a smaller effect than the claims), the claims are false.

The force that produces the speed and the force that produces the spin are the same force, and at a given offset any additional force increases the two in the same ratio. A soft tip acts slightly longer, but it's basically less force acting over a longer period, and the added-up result is the same.

There are shots designed to test the maximum spin-to-speed ratio, where you can get an actual top player trying to get maximum action using different tips--basically a slightly-off-angle draw shot where you are trying to hit a rail as far back as possible. I and others have done these empirical experiments, and the results have been consistent and agree with the expectations from the physical description.

Sometimes you need to kill your baby.
 
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dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
I am well aware there is an entire lore surrounding this notion that a soft tip gets more action, gets higher spin-to-speed ratio---and that you can find the claim from amongst the best players in the room, the best players in AZ Billiards, pro players, experienced players...


I think this claim should enter the textbooks as a superb example of confirmation bias http://skepdic.com/confirmbias.html

Aside from the subtle contact-time effect on the offset (a smaller effect than the claims), the claims are false.

The force that produces the speed and the force that produces the spin are the same force, and at a given offset any additional force increases the two in the same ratio. A soft tip acts slightly longer, but it's basically less force acting over a longer period, and the added-up result is the same.

There are shots designed to test the maximum spin-to-speed ratio, where you can get an actual top player trying to get maximum action using different tips--basically a slightly-off-angle draw shot where you are trying to hit a rail as far back as possible. I and others have done these empirical experiments, and the results have been consistent and agree with the expectations from the physical description.

Sometimes you need to kill your baby.
Well stated, Mike.

There is no question that a harder tip "feels" different and provides different "feedback."

It is also true that a harder tip results in a more efficient hit, providing more speed to the CB for a given cue speed.

And it is true that with slower CB speed, more backspin will wear off on the way to the OB with a draw shot and more sidespin will wear off on the way to the cushion with a sidespin shot (especially on slow and sticky cloth with slower shot speed). These effects might make it seem like a softer tip is applying less spin to the CB.

Regardless, as you state, the quality of spin (i.e., the spin-speed ratio) delivered to the CB depends only on the tip contact-point offset from center. The physics on this is very clear. If people still doubt this, they should do a careful and objective experiment to compare any tips they think would produce different results.

For those who have math and physics backgrounds and are interested, the physics showing how the spin-to-speed ratio depends only on tip offset from center, even when accounting for tip efficiency, can be found here:

TP A.30 - The effects of cue tip offset, cue weight, and cue speed on cue ball speed and spin

Regards,
Dave
 
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ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
whale . . .

When you set up a test with a certain set of perimeters then you can decide that one tip is better or the tips are equal, within that set of perimeters. Change the conditions of the test and you will get different results. Seems basic but people will argue endlessly that a test is definitive. Made my living in R&D, few tests are definitive for anything other than what they test!

A hard tip gives the chalk which is actually an abrasive two hard surfaces to lock between. If you ever wonder how effective that is, trains still have sand boxes on them and drop sand under the wheels when first starting or when extra traction is needed for other reasons.

A softer tip not only has a longer contact time, it has a larger surface area in contact with the cue ball. The chalk is now against a fairly soft surface on one side that can offer advantages and disadvantages compared to the hard surface depending on the level of forces at play.

Anyone that makes a definitive statement that one tip is best in all conditions is wrong. First, "best" is certainly open to interpretation, second different tips suit different playing styles better. That is why we will always have a variety of tips.

Hit the cue ball dead center to break and a hard flat or even concave tip is best to transfer force, chalk is gratuitous. Since most people don't hit dead center when trying to but most hit close to dead center a flat break tip is probably best except when deliberately hitting off center. Shoot softly with a lot of side spin and the lack of grip between the ball and table cloth will give the soft tip an edge. A soft tip can work for anything, a hard tip can work for anything, neither is best for everything.

What actually happens is the player learns to play with certain tip characteristics. Then that tip is best for them, just like the shaft and cue weight. The same set-up may play horribly for someone else. One person's fantastic hit is another person's terrible hit. I hated the tink that some people love. Took me a long time to get used to the sound of a Moori medium which is only moderately noisy after using soft milkduds for many years. These tips were soaked but basically pressed back to original shape. Soft and held their shape for years with my playing style. Best for me, most players today would hate that tip.

Hu
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
When you set up a test with a certain set of perimeters then you can decide that one tip is better or the tips are equal, within that set of perimeters. Change the conditions of the test and you will get different results. Seems basic but people will argue endlessly that a test is definitive. Made my living in R&D, few tests are definitive for anything other than what they test!

A hard tip gives the chalk which is actually an abrasive two hard surfaces to lock between. If you ever wonder how effective that is, trains still have sand boxes on them and drop sand under the wheels when first starting or when extra traction is needed for other reasons.

A softer tip not only has a longer contact time, it has a larger surface area in contact with the cue ball. The chalk is now against a fairly soft surface on one side that can offer advantages and disadvantages compared to the hard surface depending on the level of forces at play.

Anyone that makes a definitive statement that one tip is best in all conditions is wrong. First, "best" is certainly open to interpretation, second different tips suit different playing styles better. That is why we will always have a variety of tips.

Hit the cue ball dead center to break and a hard flat or even concave tip is best to transfer force, chalk is gratuitous. Since most people don't hit dead center when trying to but most hit close to dead center a flat break tip is probably best except when deliberately hitting off center. Shoot softly with a lot of side spin and the lack of grip between the ball and table cloth will give the soft tip an edge. A soft tip can work for anything, a hard tip can work for anything, neither is best for everything.

What actually happens is the player learns to play with certain tip characteristics. Then that tip is best for them, just like the shaft and cue weight. The same set-up may play horribly for someone else. One person's fantastic hit is another person's terrible hit. I hated the tink that some people love. Took me a long time to get used to the sound of a Moori medium which is only moderately noisy after using soft milkduds for many years. These tips were soaked but basically pressed back to original shape. Soft and held their shape for years with my playing style. Best for me, most players today would hate that tip.

Hu

Yes, statistics can be put together in many forms so as to be interpreted to different ends.

Draw spin, 'follow spin', 'equator spin' & combination spin are all different.

To take the test results of one & apply the conclusion from it to another with different parameters would be inappropriate & probably misleading.

I like & agree with nearly all that you've said here.

Good Post.

Best,
Rick
 
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ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
I am well aware there is an entire lore surrounding this notion that a soft tip gets more action, gets higher spin-to-speed ratio---and that you can find the claim from amongst the best players in the room, the best players in AZ Billiards, pro players, experienced players...


I think this claim should enter the textbooks as a superb example of confirmation bias http://skepdic.com/confirmbias.html

Aside from the subtle contact-time effect on the offset (a smaller effect than the claims), the claims are false.

The force that produces the speed and the force that produces the spin are the same force, and at a given offset any additional force increases the two in the same ratio. A soft tip acts slightly longer, but it's basically less force acting over a longer period, and the added-up result is the same. So, you're saying that if a robot hit the cue ball with the exact same cue & with the exact same tip offset location & with the exact same force or speed of stroke the results would be exactly the same & if this were done on a billiard table the cue ball would stop in exactly the same spot on the table AND it would not matter at what height on the cue ball the offset is applied, high, center, or low or anywhere in between. Is that what you're saying?

There are shots designed to test the maximum spin-to-speed ratio, where you can get an actual top player trying to get maximum action using different tips--basically a slightly-off-angle draw shot where you are trying to hit a rail as far back as possible. I and others have done these empirical experiments, and the results have been consistent and agree with the expectations from the physical description. These 'tests' are performed by humans & hence have subconscious influences & no guarantee that the ball is hit in the exact same spot with the exact same force. I'd venture to say that after a couple of hits, adjustments or modification would be made by a pro or any good player to get the desired outcome.

Sometimes you need to kill your baby. I'm not killing MY 'baby'. It's too well nurtured & listens too well to his Daddy.

Thanks for the input.

So...I guess we can tell, Earl, Shane, Efren, CJ or any pro that right before the final of a big tournament we're going change their tip because it just doesn't matter. I don't think that will go over very well.

Best Wishes,
Rick
 
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Scott Lee

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Hu...Hey I love ya man, but that is flat out wrong...according to the super fast video provided in the Jacksonville Experiment. Dwell time between tip and CB is appx. 1/1000th of a second (1/4 of an eye blink) for normal to hard tips. Bob Jewett (one of the principals in the JE) himself said a soft tip would perhaps double the dwell time (2/1000th's of a second...statistically insignificant difference). The size of the contact patch, though, remains the same, at appx. 1/8" or 3mm, even with tip compression. Larger chalk marks are not indicative of a larger contact patch, but merely chalk dust blow-back from the tip. :D

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

A softer tip not only has a longer contact time, it has a larger surface area in contact with the cue ball.

Hu
 

Scott Lee

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Once again, your opinion matters more than the facts of the physics, and you twist words to suit your own agenda. You won't find Mike coming back to argue with you, as 1) you don't know what you're talking about...even with "48 years of playing experience", and 2) when you try to wrestle with pigs, the only thing that happens is that you both get muddy! LOL :rolleyes:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Thanks for the input.

So...I guess we can tell, Earl, Shane, Efren, CJ or any pro that right before the final of a big tournament we're going change their tip because it just doesn't matter. I don't think that will go over very well.

Best Wishes,
Rick
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
So...I guess we can tell, Earl, Shane, Efren, CJ or any pro that right before the final of a big tournament we're going change their tip because it just doesn't matter. I don't think that will go over very well.
This is simply ridiculous. Of course the tip "matters" (and more so to some people than others).

See the quote below. The tip "matters" a lot. It just doesn't affect the amount of spin that can be created, as many people seem to think. If you haven't done so yet, please read the cue tip hardness effects resource page (and some of the supporting links). It summarizes and backs up everything fairly well.

There is no question that a harder tip "feels" different and provides different "feedback."

It is also true that a harder tip results in a more efficient hit, providing more speed to the CB for a given cue speed.

And it is true that with slower CB speed, more backspin will wear off on the way to the OB with a draw shot and more sidespin will wear off on the way to the cushion with a sidespin shot (especially on slow and sticky cloth with slower shot speed). These effects might make it seem like a softer tip is applying less spin to the CB.

Regardless, as you state, the quality of spin (i.e., the spin-speed ratio) delivered to the CB depends only on the tip contact-point offset from center. The physics on this is very clear. If people still doubt this, they should do a careful and objective experiment to compare any tips they think would produce different results.

For those who have math and physics backgrounds and are interested, the physics showing how the spin-to-speed ratio depends only on tip offset from center, even when accounting for tip efficiency, can be found here:

TP A.30 - The effects of cue tip offset, cue weight, and cue speed on cue ball speed and spin
 
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mikepage

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
These 'tests' are performed by humans & hence have subconscious influences & no guarantee that the ball is hit in the exact same spot with the exact same force. I'd venture to say that after a couple of hits, adjustments or modification would be made by a pro or any good player to get the desired outcome.

It's all in how you design the experiment. You don't need players to hit the exact same spot at the same speed. If one tip gets MORE spin-to-speed for the same contact point, then it should get a higher MAXIMUM spin-to-speed, and that should be found by a player repeatedly trying for maximum with both.

I happen to have--within 20 feet of where I am sitting-- a Kamui Black SS tip and a Kamui black Hard tip, a lathe, two identical cues, and a 12-foot snooker table with carom cloth.

Now all I need is a stroke ;-)

--just so happens I have a strong player across the building. Note the shot in the photo is slightly off angle. If the player hits with draw, the SPEED part sends the cueball up-table, and the SPIN part arcs it back toward the near rail. If I have him hit several shots trying to hit the near rail as soon as possible, then the best results after many tries will reflect the maximum SPIN-to-SPEED ration he could muster up. The cues look identical. If I hand him the cue to use each time (and mix them up randomly) so that he doesn't know when he is shooting which cue he has, that will remove the bias.

I may even tell him this is a test of the effect of shaft stiffness on how much action you can get...

stay tuned
 

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DeadStick

student of the game
Silver Member
It's all in how you design the experiment. You don't need players to hit the exact same spot at the same speed. If one tip gets MORE spin-to-speed for the same contact point, then it should get a higher MAXIMUM spin-to-speed, and that should be found by a player repeatedly trying for maximum with both.

I happen to have--within 20 feet of where I am sitting-- a Kamui Black SS tip and a Kamui black Hard tip, a lathe, two identical cues, and a 12-foot snooker table with carom cloth.

Now all I need is a stroke ;-)

--just so happens I have a strong player across the building. Note the shot in the photo is slightly off angle. If the player hits with draw, the SPEED part sends the cueball up-table, and the SPIN part arcs it back toward the near rail. If I have him hit several shots trying to hit the near rail as soon as possible, then the best results after many tries will reflect the maximum SPIN-to-SPEED ration he could muster up. The cues look identical. If I hand him the cue to use each time (and mix them up randomly) so that he doesn't know when he is shooting which cue he has, that will remove the bias.

I may even tell him this is a test of the effect of shaft stiffness on how much action you can get...

stay tuned

Ooh, I like it, even though I understand enough of the physics to know what the outcome will be. Mike, if possible, make it a double-blind experiment by getting a third party, who is not involved in the experiment, to label the cues A and B, and make sure they're the only party to know which cue has which tip. This will prevent any of your subconscious signals to the player about which cue is which.
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
Well stated, Mike.

There is no question that a harder tip "feels" different and provides different "feedback."

It is also true that a harder tip results in a more efficient hit, providing more speed to the CB for a given cue speed.

And it is true that with slower CB speed, more backspin will wear off on the way to the OB with a draw shot and more sidespin will wear off on the way to the cushion with a sidespin shot (especially on slow and sticky cloth with slower shot speed). These effects might make it seem like a softer tip is applying less spin to the CB.

Regardless, as you state, the quality of spin (i.e., the spin-speed ratio) delivered to the CB depends only on the tip contact-point offset from center. The physics on this is very clear. If people still doubt this, they should do a careful and objective experiment to compare any tips they think would produce different results.

For those who have math and physics backgrounds and are interested, the physics showing how the spin-to-speed ratio depends only on tip offset from center, even when accounting for tip efficiency, can be found here:

TP A.30 - The effects of cue tip offset, cue weight, and cue speed on cue ball speed and spin

Regards,
Dave

Dave,

If the highlighted above is true (& I certainly consider it to be so), then on an offset hit from the vertical axis & the horizontal axis, compared to a soft tip, how can the results be the same if the soft tip is putting less speed to the CB, if the tip placement is generating the same squirt & spin swerve with the same stroke? Is not the ratio different? If not is it simply reduced in whole, that is less speed & les spin?

Thanks in advance,
Rick
 
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ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
It's all in how you design the experiment. You don't need players to hit the exact same spot at the same speed. If one tip gets MORE spin-to-speed for the same contact point, then it should get a higher MAXIMUM spin-to-speed, and that should be found by a player repeatedly trying for maximum with both.

I happen to have--within 20 feet of where I am sitting-- a Kamui Black SS tip and a Kamui black Hard tip, a lathe, two identical cues, and a 12-foot snooker table with carom cloth.

Now all I need is a stroke ;-)

--just so happens I have a strong player across the building. Note the shot in the photo is slightly off angle. If the player hits with draw, the SPEED part sends the cueball up-table, and the SPIN part arcs it back toward the near rail. If I have him hit several shots trying to hit the near rail as soon as possible, then the best results after many tries will reflect the maximum SPIN-to-SPEED ration he could muster up. The cues look identical. If I hand him the cue to use each time (and mix them up randomly) so that he doesn't know when he is shooting which cue he has, that will remove the bias.

I may even tell him this is a test of the effect of shaft stiffness on how much action you can get...

stay tuned

Mr. Page,

Would you agree that there is a certain amount of 'skidding' on certain shots that 'absorbs' or negates some of the 'speed' before the spin takes effect? Also would you agree that the miscue line is different for a hard & soft tip? Would you also agree that there is a difference in direct vertical spin vs side or a combination of spin directions due to gravity & friction of the cloth?

Best Wishes,
Rick
 

DeadStick

student of the game
Silver Member
Dave, If the highlighted above is true, then on an offset hit from the vertical axis compared to a soft tip, how can the results be the same if the soft tip is putting less speed to the CB & is grabbing longer but you & others say the soft tip is not not putting more spin to less speed?

Thanks in advance,
Rick

I'm not Dave, but I'll try to answer for him. Yes, a softer tip will transfer slightly less force to the cue ball, resulting in slightly less speed for the same speed stroke, so you're right in that the CB will have less speed.

What you're missing, I think, is that the slightly less force also results in slightly less spin, so the spin:speed ratio stays approximately the same. To put it colloquially, you can't have your cake and eat it too, or TNSTAAFL: if a certain tip transfers less force to the cueball, you get both less speed and less spin for a given tip contact point.

The fact that a soft tip has a slightly longer duration of contact (up to 2ms vs 1ms for a hard tip) has been shown in experiments to not affect the spin:speed ratio – it just means that the lower force is transferred for a slightly longer period of time. One millisecond difference just isn't enough time to affect the resulting spin:speed ratio.

Now, if a certain tip material allowed for a contact point further from CB center without miscue, that tip would indeed result in a higher spin:speed ratio – but experiments have shown that the standard playing tip materials we have today do not differ in miscue limits. I believe some experiments were done with rubber super-ball tip compounds, and they did indeed "grab" the cueball with more authority past typical miscue limits, but it was not a good kind of grabbing for typical play. I believe the trickshot artist Venom and others use a rubber-type tip on extreme masse shots, but you wouldn't want to play with a tip like that.

Another equalizing factor to the softer tip producing less CB speed is this: spin, whether it's sidespin or draw spin, is worn off as the CB rolls (or slides) towards its target. If you hit it softer, less spin is remaining at OB or rail contact.

You've mentioned several pros that like soft tips. There are also many pros that like hard tips, especially hard tips that have been worn down to a very thin height. Those guys can get just the same crazy sidespin and draw shots as their soft-tip-loving counterparts. If there was some magical property of soft tips that allowed players to make otherwise impossible shots, I think we would have seen all the pros adopt soft tips by now.
 
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dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Well stated, Mike.

There is no question that a harder tip "feels" different and provides different "feedback."

It is also true that a harder tip results in a more efficient hit, providing more speed to the CB for a given cue speed.

And it is true that with slower CB speed, more backspin will wear off on the way to the OB with a draw shot and more sidespin will wear off on the way to the cushion with a sidespin shot (especially on slow and sticky cloth with slower shot speed). These effects might make it seem like a softer tip is applying less spin to the CB.

Regardless, as you state, the quality of spin (i.e., the spin-speed ratio) delivered to the CB depends only on the tip contact-point offset from center. The physics on this is very clear. If people still doubt this, they should do a careful and objective experiment to compare any tips they think would produce different results.

For those who have math and physics backgrounds and are interested, the physics showing how the spin-to-speed ratio depends only on tip offset from center, even when accounting for tip efficiency, can be found here:

TP A.30 - The effects of cue tip offset, cue weight, and cue speed on cue ball speed and spin

Regards,
Dave
Dave,

If the highlighted above is true (& I certainly consider it to be so), then on an offset hit from the vertical axis & the horizontal axis, compared to a soft tip, how can the results be the same if the soft tip is putting less speed to the CB
There is less speed because there is less force between the tip and CB. This smaller force also produces less spin ... proportionally less, so the spin-speed ratio remains constant for hits of different speeds and for tips of different hardnesses.

if the tip placement is generating the same squirt & spin swerve with the same stroke?
The amount of squirt depends only on the tip offset from center. The amount of swerve depends on many things: shot speed, cue elevation, amount of spin, ball/cloth conditions, and distance to the OB.

Thanks in advance
You're welcome.

Regards,
Dave
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
I'm not Dave, but I'll try to answer for him. Yes, a softer tip will transfer slightly less force to the cue ball, resulting in slightly less speed for the same speed stroke, so you're right in that the CB will have less speed.

What you're missing, I think, is that the slightly less force also results in slightly less spin, so the spin:speed ratio stays approximately the same. To put it colloquially, you can't have your cake and eat it to, or TNSTAAFL: if a certain tip transfers less force to the cueball, you get both less speed and less spin for a given tip contact point.

The fact that a soft tip has a slightly longer duration of contact (up to 2ms vs 1ms for a hard tip) has been shown in experiments to not affect the spin:speed ratio – it just means that the lower force is transferred for a slightly longer period of time. One millisecond difference just isn't enough time to affect the resulting spin:speed ratio.

Now, if a certain tip material allowed for a contact point further from CB center without miscue, that tip would indeed result in a higher spin:speed ratio – but experiments have shown that the standard playing tip materials we have today do not differ in miscue limits. I believe some experiments were done with rubber super-ball tip compounds, and they did indeed "grab" the cueball with more authority past typical miscue limits, but it was not a good kind of grabbing for typical play. I believe the trickshot artist Venom and others use a rubber-type tip on extreme masse shots, but you wouldn't want to play with a tip like that.

You've mentioned several pros that like soft tips. There are also many pros that like hard tips, especially hard tips that have been worn down to a very thin height. Those guys can get just the same crazy sidespin and draw shots as their soft-tip-loving counterparts. If there was some magical property of soft tips that allowed players to make otherwise impossible shots, I think we would have seen all the pros adopt soft tips by now.

Thanks for the info. & your attempt to clarify.

I know 'everyone' will say that the analogies simply do not apply but... In tennis looser or 'softer' strings stay in contact longer with the ball for the same stroke & put more spin on the ball. In golf softer balls stay in contact with the clubhead longer & yield more spin for the same 'stroke'.

It seems that you are saying that the miscue limit it the same for a 95 durometer tip like a Samsera & a 60 durometer tip like an Elk Master even though the 60 compresses more which yields more 'grab & longer contact duration. Is that what you're saying?

Thanks Again & Best Wishes,
Rick

PS I think some may be using center tip to to center cue ball for some of the comparisons & 'statistics' but applying english/spin to the ball is done with an oblique/slanted hit relative to the surface of the cue ball.
 
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DeadStick

student of the game
Silver Member
Thanks for the info. & your attempt to clarify.

I know 'everyone' will say the the analogies simply do not apply but... In tennis softer strings stay in contact longer with the ball for the same stroke & put more spin on the ball. In golf softer balls stay in contact with the clubhead longer & yield more spin for the same 'stroke'.

It seems that you are saying that the miscue limit it the same for a 95 durometer tip like a samsera & a 6o durometer tip like an Elk Master even though the 60 compresses more which yields more 'grab & longer contact duration. Is that what you're saying/

Thanks Again & Best Wishes,
Rick

Taking things to extremes will result in failures. Of course I wouldn't want to play full-time with my Samsara-tipped break cue, because that bugger doesn't compress at all. But within the ranges of "playing tips" – say Kamui SS to H – nobody (to my knowledge) has shown that the SS has a different miscue limit, or even that their actual contact patch differs in size significantly. Even if the contact patch is significantly larger with a SS tip, the H tip concentrates its force in a smaller patch, and the extra force probably equalizes the friction.
 
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DeadStick

student of the game
Silver Member
PS I think some may be using center tip to to center cue ball for some of the comparisons & 'statistics' but applying english/spin to the ball is done with an oblique/slanted hit relative to the surface of the cue ball.

I'm pretty sure the experts doing the actual experiments know that, and have accounted for it.
 
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