Somewhere in the world where the politicians didn't panic

sjm said:

I don't take issue with the views expressed by anyone in this thread. I think we're all experiencing Corona differently, each of us has a different situation to manage, and all of us interpret the information before us in a different way. That's all good.

Is Corona real? It is for the wives of two friends I've lost to Corona. Do we know how many would have died had we not shutdown or social distanced? No, not really, but trying to gauge that number boggles the mind. Will we ever know for sure whether America acted with insufficient, excessive or proper caution? Probably not. I suspect they'll still be analyzing it long after we're all dead.

Is it OK to think that reopening the economy is right and that incremental health risks associated with that move are acceptable? Yes, it is. Is it OK to feel that it's better to stay shutdown until things get a bit safer? Yeah, that's also OK. Is it OK to feel that many of the decisions made concerning Corona were politically motivated and poorly considered with respect to the well-being of the people? Yup, that's fine as well.

Are people like me who live in Manhattan, New York a little more sensitive than others when it comes to looking tragedy in the face? Yes, many of us are. All of us lost friends and/or family on 9/11/2001. I'm still shaking from a post-9/11 funeral I went to in which the body had not been recovered from the rubble at Ground Zero and there was, consequently, no real proof that the person being memorialized was even dead. Now, three friends of mine have died from Corona and not one of them had a funeral. In 2001, it was funerals with no dead bodies. In 2020, it has been dead bodies and no funerals. For those who've never experienced this kind of thing, I hope it stays that way, because it not easy to bear, and might shake you to your very foundation.

There's just one thing we all need to agree on. We need to care about each other. To every member of AZB and to everyone who participates in the world of pool in any way, may you survive these tough times and move on to a future full of potential and promise.

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Seth C. said:

SJM - While I applaud your closing sentiment - a wish of hope to all to survive these tough times and be able to move on to a positive future, I think it is unhelpful to validate any and all views, no matter how unfounded or mean-spirited. Starting with ... whether the Corona virus is real. This is not a point of opinion - a “view,” or a point to be “interpreted” based on one’s life experience. Validating wholly unfounded assertions gives them life, which is dangerous. As you know, there are many, many Holocaust deniers out there. It takes one’s breath away to contemplate that. As another example, there are the deniers of the Sandy Hook massacre of 20 first-grade school children and six adults. One of the posts in this very thread links to a website (Infowars) the founder of which loudly and publicly claimed and argued that the deaths in Sandy Hook were fake, a hoax. Only when sued and put at risk of personal loss did he finally admit, in a deposition, that the children and teachers had, in fact, died. It was not and is not “OK” to share his “interpretation,” and it is not now “OK” to deny that there is an infectious virus in our communities sickening and killing people - no matter what thoughts one may have about how to beat respond to it.

Here’s to hoping that a lot of great success is had by our precious scientists, and that we can all get back to the table, in a reasonable amount of time, in a relaxed state of mind.

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sjm said:

You need to reread my post if you think I expressed tolerance for denial.

I asked whether Corona is real and then answered my own question with a resounding yes, including examples. This is the one point I introduced where I didn't say it was OK to take either side of the argument. I only examined the difficult question of whether our collective response has been appropriate, noting that it's not so easily gauged at present. In post #4 of this thread, I made it clear that I feel our response has been a good one.

I am standing fully behind my decision to view all the points of view that I deemed acceptable, and denial wasn't one of them.

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Seth C. said:

I’m glad you clarified that. I certainly understood your thinking on whether it is real. But your earlier post (#20) began with “I don't take issue with the views expressed by anyone in this thread.” One of those views was that you are “a sheep who watches cnn and thinks this is all real and not just a way to tank the economy and bring on the new world order. Get in your pen sheep...they will be a long to slaughter you soon.” That is an expression of a view that the pandemic is not real. I therefore understood you to be saying that although you have no doubt about the reality of Covid, you are accepting of others holding a different belief. My apologies for misunderstanding you.

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evergruven said:

hi
don't you think if you were to make an argument, being aware of the *current* situation would be helpful?
I agree numbers can sometimes be deceptive..but we would be foolish to ignore them completely

let's look at the facts then
many people ARE getting really sick from covid, and dying
including young and otherwise healthy people
you mention the flu..young and healthy people don't tend to die from flu
and let's not forget that there are vaccines for the flu!
there are NO vaccines for covid

covid is spread via droplets, that's why social distancing works
that's WHY the numbers look as "good" as they do
if we don't distance, the virus spreads more easily
that's a fact
state and federal government resources have been depleted
healthcare facilities have been overrun
healthcare personnel are still getting their ass kicked
and meanwhile, bodies are piling up
this isn't a medical exaggeration
this isn't political jargon
this isn't a conspiracy
these are *facts*

healthy wishes to you and yours

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fastone371 said:

At this point in time almost all deaths are labeled as Covid related.

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sjm said:

At year end, this thread is sure to merit consideration as the worst of 2020.

With no intention of politicizing this situation, I'd have to say that my confidence in government has risen during the Corona months. Yes, I'm talking about both Democrats and Republicans, as well as federal, state and city governments.

We are all dealing with a situation in which there is inexact, and ever changing, information and no winning move. Reopen the economy and many more deaths will result and the pandemic will last longer. Keep the economy closed and you get additional social and financial misery and poverty, both of which lead to many avoidable deaths and more crime.

In the absence of a winning move, however, we've seen government a) rally to communicate more than ever with its constituencies, b) work with business to improve the movement of needed supplies. c) convert buildings into hospitals, d) use naval ships as hospitals to ease the burden on conventional hospitals, e) pass enormous economic stimuli packages for both individuals and businesses. Is government doing enough? No matter how this all turns out, we're all going to say they didn't do enough, but I think government has been a shining presence as we all try to cope with the biggest challenge of our lifetimes.

Thankfully for us, the politicians haven't panicked. On the contrary, they've stayed at their posts and done the best they can. All the Monday morning quarterbacks will lambaste them all from now until eternity, but not with good reason.

For now, it's best to appreciate all of our politicians, Democrat, Republican, Liberal, Conservative, etc., for they are all working hard to take care of us in terms of our health, our social livelihood, and our financial needs.

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fastone371 said:

I think most of your "facts" depend on your location. My wife works for the largest healthcare provider in our state, WI, but as I was told by another member WI statistics do not count. Anyway, not only are hospital resources not depleted medical staff are being put on furlough because there are very few patients who need care. 2 weeks ago my wife's employer had 107 people being treated for Covid in 15 statewide hospitals, that number fell to 97 last weekend. She has heard the same thing from many healthcare providers across the country.

The "bodies are not piling up" as predicted, in fact its nothing close to that in most areas.

The majority of deaths are coming from patients with not just 1 pre-existing condition but multiple pre-existing conditions that affect their daily health.

At this point in time almost all deaths are labeled as Covid related, the true cause of these unrelated deaths would have to be corrected at some time one would think.

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Seth C. said:

Kindly advise as to what data source(s) you are relying on here.

There is a fair amount being written about undercounting. For example, FL nursing home numbers. See, for example: https://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/...ses-expected-to-rise-in-elder-care-facilities

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HawaiianEye said:

There are pool halls open in Taiwan.

To date, they have only had a little over 400 cases and 6 deaths in the entire country due to the virus.

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sjm said:

Yup, it is the island nations that have fared best during the Corona scare. Guess that means JL Chang is still in stroke!

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evergruven said:

hi
don't you think if you were to make an argument, being aware of the *current* situation would be helpful?
I agree numbers can sometimes be deceptive..but we would be foolish to ignore them completely

let's look at the facts then
many people ARE getting really sick from covid, and dying
including young and otherwise healthy people
you mention the flu..young and healthy people don't tend to die from flu
and let's not forget that there are vaccines for the flu!
there are NO vaccines for covid

covid is spread via droplets, that's why social distancing works
that's WHY the numbers look as "good" as they do
if we don't distance, the virus spreads more easily
that's a fact
state and federal government resources have been depleted
healthcare facilities have been overrun
healthcare personnel are still getting their ass kicked
and meanwhile, bodies are piling up
this isn't a medical exaggeration
this isn't political jargon
this isn't a conspiracy
these are *facts*

healthy wishes to you and yours

Click to expand...

Seth C. said:

SJM - While I applaud your closing sentiment - a wish of hope to all to survive these tough times and be able to move on to a positive future, I think it is unhelpful to validate any and all views, no matter how unfounded or mean-spirited. Starting with ... whether the Corona virus is real. This is not a point of opinion - a “view,” or a point to be “interpreted” based on one’s life experience. Validating wholly unfounded assertions gives them life, which is dangerous. As you know, there are many, many Holocaust deniers out there. It takes one’s breath away to contemplate that. As another example, there are the deniers of the Sandy Hook massacre of 20 first-grade school children and six adults. One of the posts in this very thread links to a website (Infowars) the founder of which loudly and publicly claimed and argued that the deaths in Sandy Hook were fake, a hoax. Only when sued and put at risk of personal loss did he finally admit, in a deposition, that the children and teachers had, in fact, died. It was not and is not “OK” to share his “interpretation,” and it is not now “OK” to deny that there is an infectious virus in our communities sickening and killing people - no matter what thoughts one may have about how to beat respond to it.

Here’s to hoping that a lot of great success is had by our precious scientists, and that we can all get back to the table, in a reasonable amount of time, in a relaxed state of mind.

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JolietJames said:

The large majority of hospitals are reporting more empty needs than usual at this time. VERY few hospitals are packed with covid patients.
We have a guess shot for flu, not a reliable vaccine. Last year's shot was only 20% effective.
The numbers are BS whether you accept it or not.
You are not stating facts. Actual death rate is around 0.1%, just like the flu. Go back into hiding.

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sjm said:

At year end, this thread is sure to merit consideration as the worst of 2020.

With no intention of politicizing this situation, I'd have to say that my confidence in government has risen during the Corona months. Yes, I'm talking about both Democrats and Republicans, as well as federal, state and city governments.

We are all dealing with a situation in which there is inexact, and ever changing, information and no winning move. Reopen the economy and many more deaths will result and the pandemic will last longer. Keep the economy closed and you get additional social and financial misery and poverty, both of which lead to many avoidable deaths and more crime.

In the absence of a winning move, however, we've seen government a) rally to communicate more than ever with its constituencies, b) work with business to improve the movement of needed supplies. c) convert buildings into hospitals, d) use naval ships as hospitals to ease the burden on conventional hospitals, e) pass enormous economic stimuli packages for both individuals and businesses. Is government doing enough? No matter how this all turns out, we're all going to say they didn't do enough, but I think government has been a shining presence as we all try to cope with the biggest challenge of our lifetimes.

Thankfully for us, the politicians haven't panicked. On the contrary, they've stayed at their posts and done the best they can. All the Monday morning quarterbacks will lambaste them all from now until eternity, but not with good reason.

For now, it's best to appreciate all of our politicians, Democrat, Republican, Liberal, Conservative, etc., for they are all working hard to take care of us in terms of our health, our social livelihood, and our financial needs.

Click to expand...

Seth C. said:

Sir - The Financial Times put together a fairly deep look at excess deaths:

https://www.ft.com/content/6bd88b7d-3386-4543-b2e9-0d5c6fac846c

It showed that for a two month period - March and April - excess deaths in NYC were about 300 percent higher than the average for that same two month period over the prior five years. That translates to almost 13,000 excess deaths in NYC for that period.

Please note, again, that these are excess deaths for a two month period. Annualized, that is around 75,000 excess deaths for NYC.

Please also note that for most of this period, NYC was shut down.

Please also note that COVID-19 has been shown, without any real debate, to be highly contagious.

So, if we postulate a scenario in which the policy, during those two months, had been that everyone should go about their daily lives, including going to Knicks and Rangers games, Broadway shows, dinner in the wonderful but tightly crowded little restaurants in the theater district before the show, nightclubs, weddings, etc., etc., etc., do you think that the spread of the disease would have been about the same as it was when most everyone was sheltering in place? Do you think that the excess deaths would have been only a few thousand higher than the 13,000 excess deaths experienced when a shutdown was in place? Are you aware of the exponential nature of the spread of infectious diseases such as this? Here’s an example of how one party in Fairfield CT led to a wide spread of infection. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ny...irus-westport-connecticut-party-zero.amp.html. There are many, many other examples of this.

It is tempting to think that if we had just ignored this we’d be in about the same place we are in now, in terms of sickness and death. But as your tag line says, science got us to the moon, and science is saying otherwise.

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