New jump rule??

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
John,

Are you quitting the Cue Case business and focusing on jump cues now.
A Washington lobbyist could not come off as anymore "pro" something.
Your picking apart of Mark, or Jay or my position on jump cues is a real revalation for all to see.
You are certainly right about one thing, a rule change back to the old way would end the dispute.
And certainly jump shots are exciting for spectators, most of them go wild over a 3 rail slop shot too. Or better yet a Mike Massey special trick shot.

You are also right about it falling on deaf ears to a purist.
Jump cues are a bastardization of the game. The skill needed to successfully jump a ball, can be learned in 30 minutes by almost any banger out there.

Unless the OB is hanging in the jaws, what is the success ratio of jump shots, other than avoiding BIH or hoping to "luck" into a return safety

I am NOT anti-jumping, I am anti jump cue's.

You call it progress, I call it a gimmick that enables a "C" player to stumble out of a trap.

Amongst two evenly matched pro's, its a wash. They can jump 90% of the shots WITHOUT a specially designed cue. If you don't think so, would you play SVB, or Darren, or Alex, if they were not allowed to use a jump cue, and you were ?

Plain and simply, jump cues are an unnecessary gimmick, and I am surprised that someone of your age, and experience, so avidly defends them.

Dick

I have been in the Jump Cue business since 1998 when we introduced the Bunjee Jumper jump cue at the VNEA and BCA Nationals in Las Vegas.

As with everything I sell I try to look at all sides. When I got into the jump cue business I was fairly ambivalent about them, used them rarely, barely ever practiced with them and could have cared less if they were banned or not.

But when we decided to do jump cues I figured I should at least become proficient enough with them to do a decent demonstration. So I started to practice with them to understand the range and the mechanics.

When I got to Vegas I found that just demonstrating them wasn't enough. I had to learn to teach the technique of how to jump.

In the intervening years I have seen and done everything you can imagine concerning jump cues. I have seen everyone's arguments against them and dissected them logically and analytically.

The logical reasons for having them under the current rules far outweigh any reason against them. The people who don't like them have reasons that are based on a history that does not exist.

The billiard industry over the last 150 years is a long list of innovation. The two items that have caused the most controversy however have been the Sardo rack and the jump cue. These two items have only served to make it a level playing field, just as good cloth, good rails, properly made cues, and consistent balls have done.

The reason I can argue the pro-jump cue side of this a little more in depth than most is that I have been doing it for ten years.
 

Flex

Banger
Silver Member
Dick <---would eat a dead rat before using a jump cue. :eek:

Golly gee whiz... I saw that hater of jump cues, Earl the Pearl, use one not too long ago. Someone posted a link to a video of him using it. Guess when the green's on the line even The Pearl resorted to the doggone thing.

Also saw Efren use one too.

Adapt, folks. It's the name of the game, at least if you want the cheese.

Flex
 

Flex

Banger
Silver Member
I think it is a bad idea, because in push out after the break you can push to a jump shot. That adds excitement to the game.

Adds excitement, you bet!

A couple of years ago someone hustled me, and offered me the breaks, the wild 4 and wild 7.

In one of the games, he hooked me really badly, leaving the cue ball just about in the corner pocket, with the one ball in the opposite corner pocket diagonally across the table, with a couple of blockers in the way. Out comes my home made jump cue, and did I pop that cue ball or what? It goes over a blocker about 6 inches in front of the cue ball and hops over another ball along the way and sinks that sucker one ball, and even got good (lucky) shape on the two ball. Totally frickin' unbelievable shot.

My opponent started cheering and said that was the shot of the day. You betcha!

Jump cues add excitement, to say the least.

Down with all the jump cue bashing!!

Flex
 

Flex

Banger
Silver Member
Dick, I feel that it has become popular due to the manufacturers. My proof of it is this- If jumps are so great for the game, why am I not allowed to jump with just my shaft? I can do jumps with it that you can't with a jump cue. The only reason I can come up with, is that everybody already owns a shaft.

The only stipulation, in most areas, is that a cue must be at least 40 inches long.

You can take your regular shaft, and insert a pencil thin piece of balsa or other lightweight wood into the insert and make it 40 plus inches long, with very little weight added. So long as it's 40 inches long, it's legal. And it works just fine for those really close jump shots.

Go for it!

Flex
 

Flex

Banger
Silver Member
SJD: about your take on the integrity of the game...

While it's true the ability to jump has changed the game, it hasn't changed it so drastically that it's comparable to a corked bat or square groove club. Jumping only helps with 1 aspect of the game, dealing with being hooked (and even then only a certain kind of hook). The bulk of the game is still making shots and playing position, and it has no effect on that game.

In other words it doesn't increase your overall offensive ability, just your ability to deal with this one niche situation. Whereas a corked bat helps every single batter score more often, every single golfer's drive, etc. I guess you could argue the at-bat and driving situations are not ALL of baseball or golf, but I think they're close half of it. Whereas jumping in pool is... I dunno, 2% of it?

Plus, we're talking about equipment that helps mostly 1 particular form of pool... 9/10 ball. You don't see it much in 8 ball and never in 1p/straight pool.

You and neil might have a point about the length thing, I'm not really sure. When the first rules came out with minimum (and maximum?) cue lengths, were they even thinking of jumps? Why bother have restrictions on this in the first place? I know that in golf you can get an illegally long driver and it might help you get sick distances, but in pool... jump cues that fall within the legal requirements can already make any jump you want. So why are there rules at all? They could have made the jump cue's length requirement long enough that a dart stroke is really difficult maybe...

Perhaps you should amend your statement to read that you've never see it in 1 pocket and straight pool. Why? Because you've never played yours truly. If I need to jump in straight or 1 pocket, out comes the jumper. If my opponent gets sick at the sight, so much the better. If he wants to ban my use of it, well, we don't have to play.

Flex
 

Flex

Banger
Silver Member
i think it is almost impossible to outlaw jumping and ill tell you why (i had a thread about this)......

what if a guy is near the rail, he's strait in and needs to draw back, yet there is a ball..... potentially..... in his way. one guy may say the ball is in his way, another guy may say its not..... but the player feels putting the desired, elevated stroke on the ball he will not hit the interfering ball and will thus draw back..... same as he would if the supposedly interfering ball was not there. you just can't have subjective judgements like this in pool, and as far fetch as it may sound, this very reason, for me, should prevent anyone from barring jump shots.

A shot like this came up for me recently. If I had tried to simply hit the object ball with a regular cue I'd most likely have fouled. I jumped and hit the ball, potted it down rail, and the cue ball died right there, no foul. Even though the ball potted, it went in the wrong pocket, corner instead of side. End of my run in 8 ball, but there was no ball in hand for my opponent.

Flex
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
John,
The skill needed to successfully jump a ball, with a jump cue,can be learned in 30 minutes by almost any banger out there.

So what? The skill to successfully draw a ball can be learned in five minutes. The skill to kick can be learned in five minutes. Anything can be learned quickly in pool. To master it however takes much much longer.

You are making the same mistake that many anti-cue folks make and are just equating the action with "success". A jump SHOT is not about making the cueball hop over another ball. Doing that is just a result of the right mechanics and the only difference between using a "full" cue and a jump cue is how you hold the cue and the real range.

A successful jump SHOT is one where the shooter has correctly executed the shot with the right speed, spin, trajectory to make the cue ball and object ball do what the shooter wants it to do.

Unless the OB is hanging in the jaws, what is the success ratio of jump shots, other than avoiding BIH or hoping to "luck" into a return safety

Depending on the skill of the player and what they want to do the success ratio can be quite high. Like I said in an earlier post, if you saw me and others around me who are even better, shoot our jump shots and make shots with draw, follow, jump safes, jump banks, jump kicks and basically jump shots that work as well as any normal shots.

If you see a player who has really practiced then you will see a much higher level and perhaps begin to appreciate how well someone can use the jump cue.


I am NOT anti-jumping, I am anti jump cue's.

If you are pro-jump SHOT then how can you not appreciate all the great great great players that have put in the effort to become extremely good at the wider range of jump shots a jump cue provides?

You call it progress, I call it a gimmick that enables a "C" player to stumble out of a trap.

A gimmick that does that is a steel rod with a huge phenolic tip on it. A jump CUE is something that can be used to make a difficult shot with precision. Of course a jump cue allows a C player to stumble out a trap but then again the same C player also stumbles into successful three rail kicks once in a while as well. Maybe the trap should be tighter.

Amongst two evenly matched pro's, its a wash. They can jump 90% of the shots WITHOUT a specially designed cue. If you don't think so, would you play SVB, or Darren, or Alex, if they were not allowed to use a jump cue, and you were ?

No they can't. If you want to back any of those guys in a jump shot contest I will set up 20 jump shots with more than 12" distance between the cueball and the blocking ball. I will bet $10,000 that their percentage of successful shots is less than 50% and my percentage will be at least 50%. Further more I will bet another $10,000 that if I give them a jump cue then their success percentage will be much much higher than mine.


Plain and simply, jump cues are an unnecessary gimmick, and I am surprised that someone of your age, and experience, so avidly defends them.

Dick[/QUOTE]

If they are so unnecessary can you explain why all the pros use them? If all the top pros can jump 90% of the jump shots they are faced with why do they use them?

I mean I have sold jump cues to Fong Pang Chao, who won $50,000 with his on a jump shot that he ABSOLUTELY could not have made with his normal cue. I sold one to Allen Hopkins who jumped the cueball clear off the table when he tried it the first time because he was used to having to hit the cue ball at warp speed to compensate for the soft tip and back heavy cue. I can't tell you the amount of jump cues that pros have acquired from me. For an "unnecessary gimmick" there are an awful lot of pros, I'd guess around 99%, who use them. Seems pretty necessary to me.

Now, the standard comeback is that a person will get one because his opponent has one. This argument, if true, actually speaks to the necessity of jump cues. But actually one can choose to handicap oneself and cut oneself off from a wide range of possible shots and elect to not use a jump cue. A jump cue is not used because the opponent has one, it is used because every time the player steps to the table he or she wants to have the largest range of shots available to them.
 

Flex

Banger
Silver Member
As a tournament director, it's not always my call to make. In the Swanee, Mark Griffin made the decision to not allow jump cues and that was fine with me. I was around long before there were jump cues, and then jumping with the shaft became popular. It amazed me what guys could do with the shaft of their playing cue. Soon after, a new market opened up for specialized jump cues. A million cues later and they are still selling them.

I don't really care one way of the other. On the one hand I think they look kind of quirky, kind of like the croquet style putter in vogue on the Senior golf tour until it was banned. No question they make jumping balls a lot easier. And I think the jump shot with a short cue is a pretty cool looking shot from a spectators point of view. But somehow they look like a club that doesn't belong in a pool player's bag. If you can jump with your playing cue then that's a very skillful shot. I've noticed the trend these days is to go back to not allowing jump cues.

So I am somewhat ambivalent as you can tell. I can take them or leave them either way. One of the problems with jump cues is determining what is a legal cue and what isn't. Until we have a universal organization that can make and enforce rules then it will remain each tournament promoter/directors decision to make. I sure wouldn't leave it up to the WPA to decide this one. They might decide to write an entire book on what constitutes a legal jump cue. And then you would need an interpreter to understand it all.

I guess at this point in time if it were up to me, I'd just leave them out.

One of the key factors in making a cue jump a ball easily is the weight of the cue. Length is also a factor, but a really light cue, in the 6 to 7 ounce range with a very hard tip, such as a White Diamond or other tip, makes it pretty simple. Such a cue can be made to look like a regular cue in terms of length and so on. BTW, a very light cue can be used to break decently as well.

When the IPT got started and banned jump cues and phenolic tips some people thought that would redefine pool. How wrong they were.

Flex
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
Originally Posted by Neil
Dick, I feel that it has become popular due to the manufacturers. My proof of it is this- If jumps are so great for the game, why am I not allowed to jump with just my shaft? I can do jumps with it that you can't with a jump cue. The only reason I can come up with, is that everybody already owns a shaft.

This is also a red herring. The jump cue became popular because they work. There is no secret jump cue manuafacturer's group that is dedicated to popularizing jump cues.

The reason that there is a 40" rule is because that is the rule that the Texas Express group and the BCA and eventually the WPA adopted as the minimum length. Jump cue makers complied and built cues that have the same jumpability as just shafts.
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
One of the key factors in making a cue jump a ball easily is the weight of the cue. Length is also a factor, but a really light cue, in the 6 to 7 ounce range with a very hard tip, such as a White Diamond or other tip, makes it pretty simple. Such a cue can be made to look like a regular cue in terms of length and so on. BTW, a very light cue can be used to break decently as well.

When the IPT got started and banned jump cues and phenolic tips some people thought that would redefine pool. How wrong they were.

Flex

Had the IPT succeeded then they very well could have redefined pool. It could have been that we would all be playing IPT rules now. He who has the gold makes the rules. Kevin's gold ran out so he couldn't take over pool.
 

Flex

Banger
Silver Member
A special cue, to perform a special function, is NOT the way the game was ever intended to be played.

Says who? Has somebody managed to figure out what was in the mind of those who came up with pool?

Seems to me that adaptation is the name of this game. Adapt or die.


Flex
 

Flex

Banger
Silver Member
One last thought is that the public gets more excited about a great jump shot than almost any other shot - why is that???

Because they are so frickin' hard to execute, the ball is bouncing around, there is danger of losing the cue ball off the table, and so on.

One of the most spectacular shots in The Color of Money was that jump shot executed, if memory serves, by Willie Mosconi. Didn't they show it in slow motion? Took him something like 15 tries to pull it off. It's the difficulty, and the seeming impossibility of it going in that makes it particularly impressive.

The fans like action, impossible shots. Not only the fans, by the way, but just about everybody.

Flex
 
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JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
A special cue, to perform a special function, is NOT the way the game was ever intended to be played.

I want to add to this that the so-called normal cue you currently use is in fact a special cue designed for a special function. Its' current form has evolved from the Mace.

856_1_2.jpg


I don't suppose you want to match up with even a mediocre one pocket player if you have to use the traditional billiard implement and your opponent gets one of them modern gimmick cue with their gimmick leather tips and gets to use that gimmick powder called chalk.

People keep talking about the "tradition" of the game but we don't play with grass rails and wickets on the pool table anymore.

Golf is not played with the same wooden clubs and balls as it was 100 years ago. Tennis is not played with the same rackets.

Pocket billiards has always been about making balls go into pockets. All of the innovations in cues and other equipment has been to further that goal.

Consistent cues, consistent rails, consistent balls, consistent cloth, consistent slate, and now consistent jump cues.
 

Jayson

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I personally think jump cues are great. I believe it shouldn't matter if u hook yourself or if someone else does, i think u should still be able to use it. People think using a jump cue is so simple and easy, but not many people can be consistent with one. I played pool for 16 years without owning one and bought one about 6 months ago and its been incredible. Im far from being a pro but i play damn strong and i know that my game has gone up since i started using a jump cue. Being able to use a jump cue the right way is an art and a great skill to have. I say pool is getting harder and harder to make a living at so i think somone should use every skill and advantage they have to try to be the best they can be. I've had people refuse to play me unless i didnt use a jump cue and i told them if they didnt think they had a chance with me using it maybe they should learn how to play better or take up another sport. I respect everyones opinion and this is just my opinion, it doesnt mean anything. I just know if im playing someone a lot better than me im gonna use everything i have. Jumping is something that when done right, is amazing to watch and should be appreciated as a skill. Just an opinion.
 

ShootingRazbone

He got all the rolls
Silver Member
I want to add to this that the so-called normal cue you currently use is in fact a special cue designed for a special function. Its' current form has evolved from the Mace.

856_1_2.jpg


I don't suppose you want to match up with even a mediocre one pocket player if you have to use the traditional billiard implement and your opponent gets one of them modern gimmick cue with their gimmick leather tips and gets to use that gimmick powder called chalk.

People keep talking about the "tradition" of the game but we don't play with grass rails and wickets on the pool table anymore.

Golf is not played with the same wooden clubs and balls as it was 100 years ago. Tennis is not played with the same rackets.

Pocket billiards has always been about making balls go into pockets. All of the innovations in cues and other equipment has been to further that goal.

Consistent cues, consistent rails, consistent balls, consistent cloth, consistent slate, and now consistent jump cues.

Nothing consistent about any of those things mentioned in the pool world.
 

DogsPlayingPool

"What's in your wallet?"
Silver Member
The jump cue doesn't bother me so much but I'm definitely against the use of that back scratcher. It takes all the skill out of scratching your back.

Didn't mean to hijack this thread. :grin:
 
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OrigZaphod

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Tech in any games evolves, and you adapt to it.

Heck slate itself could be considered a gimmick, original billiards was played on grass!

I think its the people that can not or do not want to learn to use one that complains, I have been in matches where the opponent used one. Sometimes it was a new guy and didn't make the shot but hit the OB so no ball in hand, others it was done by someone who KNEW how to use it and beat me.

Either way, didn't bother me, just made me consider more the position i leave people in, I now look for the jump if its possible and try to avoid leaving it open as well.

I think it has made me a better position player because of it. Ok whats next, No green chalk, only le pro tips, no custom cues, only solid maple, no jump cues, and have to hit only right handed behind your back.....Oh and if the other player cries, you have to give him a hug?

Stop whining about it and move on. If you don't like them don't use them, beat the guy that does use them and then feel smug about it. Play better then he other guy and its never a problem..
 

Mark Griffin

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Jump cues

I just want to say that I appreciate all of these various opinions. Although John (JB cases) and I do not agree on everything, I really like his analysis. I do not take it as bashing - so I'm hoping others don't either.

I will probably just say that I personally do not really care for jump cues. Probably because, although owning one, I have only used it 10 times in the last 10 years. Obviosuly, I am NOT very proficient.

But - I also do not care for 9 ball. I prefer one-pocket, or 8-ball.

I am stating this because I think a lot of it comes around to personal preference.

I can see the 'things change' argument. And actually agree in most other aspects of live. That is why I use a cell phone - texting and a computer.

But if I was to seriously gamble with YOU - we would just have a rule about no JUMP cues. And that is because if you are an average jumper, you have an advantage on me.

I will say one last thing. One of the major reasons I do not wholly endorse jump cues is that I have owned a lot of pool rooms - many of them had antiques tables. And jumping balls is HARD on a table and cloth. So if you want to practice jumping, go somewhere else! (Kinda puts a room owner in an awkward position . . . .)

Mark Griffin
 
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