Playing speed

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PoolSharkAllen

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Many times I've watched video clips of you guys playing 14.1 and I've been amazed at how some of you manage to run your racks so quickly.

Most instructors would say that you should frequently walk around the table and plan your pattern after every shot. In contrast, right after some people break they're already starting to pot balls without really stopping to look at the table layout that closely. It doesn't seem like they slow down unless there's a problem situation or it's approaching the end of the rack.

So my general questions are:
1. Are you really able to analyze the rack and plan your patterns that quickly?
2. When you're at the table, do you always initially identify your break ball and key balls or do you determine that later in the rack?
3. If you think of a pool rack as consisting of the Opening, Middle game and End game, do you save most of your in-depth planning for the middle/end game?
4. Do you play so quickly because you rely on your shot making skills to get you back in line?
5. Are you a impulsive kind of player, playing mostly by instinct?
6. Are these faster players actually playing too fast, wherein they might do better to slow down their tempo, study the table layout more and plan their patterns a little bit better? These fast players may be running out their racks but perhaps they would do better to slow down a bit?
 
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C

Cleveland D

Registered
PoolSharkAllen said:
Many times I've watched video clips of you guys playing 14.1 and I've been amazed at how some of you manage to run your racks so quickly.

Most instructors would say that you should frequently walk around the table and plan your pattern after every shot. In contrast, right after some people break they're already starting to pot balls without really stopping to look at the table layout that closely. It doesn't seem like they slow down unless there's a problem situation or it's approaching the end of the rack.

So my general questions are:
1. Are you really able to analyze the rack and plan your patterns that quickly?
2. When you're at the table, do you always initially identify your break ball and key balls or do you determine that later in the rack?
3. If you think of a pool rack as consisting of the Opening, Middle game and End game, do you save most of your in-depth planning for the middle/end game?
4. Do you play so quickly because you rely on your shot making skills to get you back in line?
5. Are you a impulsive kind of player, playing mostly by instinct?
6. Are these faster players actually playing too fast, wherein they might do better to slow down their tempo, study the table layout more and plan their patterns a little bit better? These fast players may be running out their racks but perhaps they would do better to slow down a bit?
Click to expand...


Personal opinion is I htink this differs for every individual based on habits, talent & their individual way of doing things. Look at Machine Gun Lou Butera he ran racks at lightning like speeds & it worked for him. For somone else- likely cause them to make many errors. No one answer for all in my opinion anyway.
 
stevekur1

stevekur1

The "COMMISH"
Silver Member
In my opinion, once you have played the game enuf or any other game you start to see the commonalities in the patterns. And you recognize you trouble spots right away. My self when i am playing well i like to solve all of the problems within the first 7 balls (operative words, WHEN i am playing well) and i do like to recognize the break shot right away and what 3 other balls link up to it nicely. So if all goes well it is smooth sailing !

Hope this made Sense !
-Steve
 
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Vahmurka

Vahmurka

...and I get all da rolls
Silver Member
nice questions are brought up, and I would definitely like to see more replies, from either 100+ runners and pro players. Thanks PoolShark!
 
Blackjack

Blackjack

Illuminati Blacksmack
Silver Member
I'll use the way I play in this video to answer these questions -

14.1: Quick 51 Ball Run

In this video, I run 51 balls in just a little over 10 minutes.

So my general questions are:
1. Are you really able to analyze the rack and plan your patterns that quickly?

Yes and no. Everything depends upon the lay of the table. I tend to develop a BB and KB early. From there, I am usually looking at the last 3 balls, and how I will set up for them. Once all the balls are open, I try to use stop shot position whenever possible.That keeps things simple for me.

2. When you're at the table, do you always initially identify your break ball and key balls or do you determine that later in the rack?
Always.


3. If you think of a pool rack as consisting of the Opening, Middle game and End game, do you save most of your in-depth planning for the middle/end game?
It should all be "in-depth" - IMO, if you ease up your concentration, you'll pay for it.

4. Do you play so quickly because you rely on your shot making skills to get you back in line?
No. I play quickly because it's just how I have always played.

5. Are you a impulsive kind of player, playing mostly by instinct?
I consider myself "instinctively methodical" - and I try to stay consistent in my strategy and I play in accordance to how the table opens up. It's about constantly being able to adapt to what you have in front of you, plan and then execute.

6. Are these faster players actually playing too fast, wherein they might do better to slow down their tempo, study the table layout more and plan their patterns a little bit better? These fast players may be running out their racks but perhaps they would do better to slow down a bit?

In my case, I should not slow down (JMO)... I feel that if I give myself too much time to think about something, then I will start second guessing my initial instincts.
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D

driven

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Wink said:
Great questions and great answers. Thanks David.
Click to expand...
I agree
My first priority is getting the balls opened up. until then, often times I cannot even think of break balls, etc.
If the rack has lots of problems I find myself using up all the good balls trying to solve them, leaving very little at the end.
but I am working on it.
steven
 
stevekur1

stevekur1

The "COMMISH"
Silver Member
stevekur1 said:
In my opinion, once you have played the game enuf or any other game you start to see the commonalities in the patterns. And you recognize you trouble spots right away. My self when i am playing well i like to solve all of the problems within the first 7 balls (operative words, WHEN i am playing well) and i do like to recognize the break shot right away and what 3 other balls link up to it nicely. So if all goes well it is smooth sailing !

Hope this made Sense !
-Steve
Click to expand...

My answer seemed so insignificant, and i put so much thought into it !!!! LOL:grin:

Blackjack said:
I'll use the way I play in this video to answer these questions -

14.1: Quick 51 Ball Run

In this video, I run 51 balls in just a little over 10 minutes.

So my general questions are:
1. Are you really able to analyze the rack and plan your patterns that quickly?

Yes and no. Everything depends upon the lay of the table. I tend to develop a BB and KB early. From there, I am usually looking at the last 3 balls, and how I will set up for them. Once all the balls are open, I try to use stop shot position whenever possible.That keeps things simple for me.

2. When you're at the table, do you always initially identify your break ball and key balls or do you determine that later in the rack?
Always.


3. If you think of a pool rack as consisting of the Opening, Middle game and End game, do you save most of your in-depth planning for the middle/end game?
It should all be "in-depth" - IMO, if you ease up your concentration, you'll pay for it.

4. Do you play so quickly because you rely on your shot making skills to get you back in line?
No. I play quickly because it's just how I have always played.

5. Are you a impulsive kind of player, playing mostly by instinct?
I consider myself "instinctively methodical" - and I try to stay consistent in my strategy and I play in accordance to how the table opens up. It's about constantly being able to adapt to what you have in front of you, plan and then execute.

6. Are these faster players actually playing too fast, wherein they might do better to slow down their tempo, study the table layout more and plan their patterns a little bit better? These fast players may be running out their racks but perhaps they would do better to slow down a bit?

In my case, I should not slow down (JMO)... I feel that if I give myself too much time to think about something, then I will start second guessing my initial instincts.
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Click to expand...


Very great answer dave, you answered every answer to a T....This coming from a Under-runner !!!

-Steve
 
Ron F

Ron F

Ron F
Silver Member
Depends

I'd say it all depends on several things.
Your skill level.
The lay of the table (amount of clusters that need to be broken up; amount of problem balls, such as single balls on the head rail, etc)
Whether an easy key ball and break ball are already in place or need to be manufactured.
The potential to manufacture a break shot if one isn't currently available (balls inside or close to the rack area).

I've tried several tempos, from Souquet speed to Butera speed and found that agonizing over every single shot isn't always best. I've also heard second hand from a 300+ ball-runner that nothing matters until there are 5 or 6 balls left on the table. That's when the real "work" begins. Tempo is a developed trait. What's good for one shooter isn't necessarily good for all shooters. Play with it. Experiment, and find what works best for you.

Ron F
 
Marop

Marop

14.1 - real pool
Silver Member
Ron F said:
I'd say it all depends on several things.
Your skill level.
The lay of the table (amount of clusters that need to be broken up; amount of problem balls, such as single balls on the head rail, etc)
Whether an easy key ball and break ball are already in place or need to be manufactured.
The potential to manufacture a break shot if one isn't currently available (balls inside or close to the rack area).

I've tried several tempos, from Souquet speed to Butera speed and found that agonizing over every single shot isn't always best. I've also heard second hand from a 300+ ball-runner that nothing matters until there are 5 or 6 balls left on the table. That's when the real "work" begins. Tempo is a developed trait. What's good for one shooter isn't necessarily good for all shooters. Play with it. Experiment, and find what works best for you.

Ron F
Click to expand...

This pretty much sums it up. Very good post.

My pace of play is a little faster than it was a few years ago only because I'm not as confused as to what to do right after the breakshot. Now it just kind of comes naturally on how to start taking off the balls. Some racks just seem so easy and others are a jigsaw puzzle, those are the ones you have to take a little extra time on.

John told me you have to know when to bear down and when to just shoot. If you bear down on every shot you will be mentally burned out after just a few racks. When you watch John he plays fairly fast but when its needed he takes his time to work it out. His run of 366 on video took just 1 hour and 49 minutes, do the math on that one.

High runs generally come easier to players that play at a fairly quick pace. Schmidt, Ortmann, Mika, Niels, Barouty and Lipskey are a few examples. Look at Jasmin, fairly quick pace and she is the best female straight pool player on the planet.

I'm not saying that playing fast is for everyone, Thorsten and Ralf play a little slower and they are two of the best in the world. But I doubt you will find a 100+ ball runner that walks around the table after every shot and takes 25 warm up strokes before pulling the trigger. :)

Bill
 
Winston846

Winston846

Aspiring 14.1 Player
Silver Member
Marop said:
I'm not saying that playing fast is for everyone, Thorsten and Ralf play a little slower and they are two of the best in the world. But I doubt you will find a 100+ ball runner that walks around the table after every shot and takes 25 warm up strokes before pulling the trigger. :)

Bill
Click to expand...

I know one. He ran 102 on me, but if you put a shot clock on him, he's in trouble. ;)
 
C

Cameron Smith

is kind of hungry...
Silver Member
Not everyone functions cognitively at the same speed (but it doesn't make anyone on that scaler smarter or dumber). Some people need to spend more time than others. I think the general rule in regards to speed of play is that you don't shoot until you know what you want to do. Some who try to play faster than is natural for them will often overlook things.

Straightpool seems confusing at first because it seems like there are so many options. But as you refine your patterns and learn some of the rules it becomes easier, and eventually second nature to choose your routes.

For example, you KNOW that you have to get rid of that ball near the point of the side pocket so you formulate a plan to get that out of there. But there are a few balls that you can't shoot because they are your key balls and break ball. So your choices get narrowed down based on what balls you want to leave till the end and what problems you need to clear out. The more you play and more racks you run, the more the process gets ingrained.

I don't believe any player who consistently runs 50-100 balls ever truly freewheels without much planning. You would need to have great shotmaking to get through those end patterns. All fast players have some sort of purpose to what they are doing they just see things quicker than others.

I think the only players I ever felt could do well to slow down a bit were Luc Salvas and Tony Drago (though I never saw drago play 14.1). Other players such as Ortmann and Immonen run through racks quite quickly, but they always take a moment if the layout is tricky.

My rule of thumb, take my time in the first rack or two. I'll naturally speed up as my confidence improves and my arm gets looser.
 
P

PoolSharkAllen

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Cameron Smith said:
Not everyone functions cognitively at the same speed (but it doesn't make anyone on that scaler smarter or dumber). Some people need to spend more time than others. I think the general rule in regards to speed of play is that you don't shoot until you know what you want to do. Some who try to play faster than is natural for them will often overlook things.

Straightpool seems confusing at first because it seems like there are so many options. But as you refine your patterns and learn some of the rules it becomes easier, and eventually second nature to choose your routes.

For example, you KNOW that you have to get rid of that ball near the point of the side pocket so you formulate a plan to get that out of there. But there are a few balls that you can't shoot because they are your key balls and break ball. So your choices get narrowed down based on what balls you want to leave till the end and what problems you need to clear out. The more you play and more racks you run, the more the process gets ingrained.

I don't believe any player who consistently runs 50-100 balls ever truly freewheels without much planning. You would need to have great shotmaking to get through those end patterns. All fast players have some sort of purpose to what they are doing they just see things quicker than others.

I think the only players I ever felt could do well to slow down a bit were Luc Salvas and Tony Drago (though I never saw drago play 14.1). Other players such as Ortmann and Immonen run through racks quite quickly, but they always take a moment if the layout is tricky.

My rule of thumb, take my time in the first rack or two. I'll naturally speed up as my confidence improves and my arm gets looser.
Click to expand...

Cameron, In some ways I like your response the best as it ties in with something I've been mulling over for awhile.

Some time ago, I responded to another thread: "Leveraging your subconscious (read: don't let your conscious get in the way!)", http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=216564&highlight=chess . Without realizing it, Sean Fleinen's thread and mine have a lot of overlap between them. I made the following comments in Sean Fleinen's thread that I think can be applied to my questions in this thread about playing speed.

"The various games in pool do have a lot in common with playing chess, in that one does need to plan ahead regardless of whether they are playing pool or chess.

In chess, one of the differences between a highly skilled grandmaster and a lesser player is the ability to recognize patterns (pattern recognition). Having played thousands of games, a chess grandmaster recognizes certain patterns that allow them to recognize a situation that they've encountered before and know how to deal with it. A similar situation in pool might be utilizing a breakout ball to break open a cluster.

Players in either chess or pool use heuristics, a set of rules to solve problems. A more advanced player that plays faster than a slower player may do so because their set of heuristics is more refined as they may have been in a similar situation before and know how to react to it."​

Sean made the following comment that I think may explain why some players play so fast. These faster players are in a "auto-pilot mode," wherein they use heuristics and pattern recognition to greatly accelerate their tempo.
After you've shot a lot of patterns, and you let yourself enter "auto pilot" mode, you'd be surprised how many of those patterns repeat. I've actually run many a rack down to the final triangle, only to have my conscious mind "wake up" and notice there's only three balls left on the table. It's almost like, "Where'd the other balls go?" (Not quite, of course, as I can remember certain shots and what I did to get to the next shot. But I am surprised that I went through those balls "so quickly" -- or at least how it appears to my conscious mind.)

The first several times you try to run entire racks like this -- shoot without deliberation/thinking -- you'll find you have no patterns. It's just a series of random shots that "appeal" to you for whatever reason. But after awhile of continuing to play like this, you'll see a rhyme behind your reason. Patterns start to be followed, and you're not consciously thinking and deliberating about them. Are they the "best" 14.1 patterns? Probably not. But are they in your realm of capability / visualization? Most likely, yes."​
 
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