Educate me on 9 ball spots...

jokrswylde

jokrswylde

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Last week I was approached by a guy wanting some action. He was told that I like to play for cheap, and there weren't many other folks gambling. He approached me to play some 9 ball, and even though I mainly play 8 ball, I told him I was game if we could make a good game.

I knew that this dude is better than me, the rumor is that he is around a 620-640 FR. He wanted to play 7 ahead for 100 bucks. I told him I preferred a straight race to 7, but he was adamant about the 7 ahead.

I told him I wanted the 7 out and the breaks, he laughed. Well after haggling and hemming and hawing, the game was decided on;

7 ahead 9 ball for a hundo
7 ft diamond
I got the 7 out and the first 4 breaks, winner breaks after that.
He paid for all games( he had a big sackful of quarters.
3 foul rule in effect.

I was expecting to get boat-raced, as I very seldom play 9 ball, but I was shooting pretty well and after my first four breaks I was 3 ahead with 2 BnR's and he was mumbling about being in a trap.

The tide really turned when this dude got to break...he basically played 5 or 6 ball after he broke, as it seemed 3 or 4 balls dropped every time he cracked them. We were back to even very quickly and stayed right around there, with neither getting more than 2 ahead for the next hour or so.

My break was very shaky, and eventually non existent. I broke dry 4 or 5 times in a row, and he got out almost every time. Just like that, he was moving the chip around to the 7th diamond and it was over.

In looking back, I imagine there is a reason he insisted on 7ahead vs. a race format, but I cant figure out why.

Also, the 7 out spot only helped me maybe 2 or 3 games the entire match..it seems that spot is really inconsequential for a run out player, but makes a weaker player feel like he is getting an advantage. (I should have told him to stuff the 7 out and insisted on getting the breaks, would have been a much better spot for me)

All in all, it was fun...not a 100 bucks fun, but fun nevertheless.
I certainly need to practice 9 ball more before playing this guy again, and try to figure out how to turn my break into a weapon instead of a liability.

When it comes to the spot, I think I would be better served getting games on the wire vs. a ball spot. Thoughts or advice?
 
PoolBum

PoolBum

Ace in the side.
Silver Member
Playing 7 ahead favors the better player more than a race to 7 does.

You said you got the first 4 breaks, and you were 3 ahead after your first 4 breaks, but that's mathematically impossible.
 
iusedtoberich

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It sounds like you got a pretty good deal to me. 7 ahead, with a much stronger player, getting a large spot, and him paying all the table time, for 100.

Usually when you play a much stronger player they won't give a large spot unless the bet is higher. And they might play you cheap $25 or $50 sets even or with a very small spot, since you are getting a learning experience.

That's been my experience anyway with around 700 to 740 level Fargo players. Either we play even for 5 or 10 a game, or 25 per set, or I get the 8 for 50 a set, or I get the 5 out and the breaks if I bet 500 a set.
 
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jokrswylde

jokrswylde

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
iusedtoberich said:
It sounds like you got a pretty good deal to me. 7 ahead, with a much stronger player, getting a large spot, and him paying all the table time, for 100.

Usually when you play a much stronger player they won't give a large spot unless the bet is higher. And they might play you cheap $25 or $50 sets even or with a very small spot, since you are getting a learning experience.

That's been my experience anyway with around 700 to 740 level Fargo players. Either we play even for 5 or 10 a game, or 25 per set, or I get the 8 for 50 a set, or I get the 5 out and the breaks if I bet 500 a set.
Click to expand...

So you have sort of a scale you use based on money and the level of your opponent... that's a good idea. I would certainly play him again with 7 ot and the breaks... just keeping that break stick in his case gotta be worth more than a few games
 
Bob Jewett

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
PoolBum said:
Playing 7 ahead favors the better player more than a race to 7 does.

You said you got the first 4 breaks, and you were 3 ahead after your first 4 breaks, but that's mathematically impossible.
Click to expand...
Mathematics does not factor in gratuitous coin-moving when the other player isn't looking.:grin:

7 ahead between nearly equal players is a problem. If the balance is 55%-45% for a single game, and fatigue is not a factor, then half the matches will take more than 35 games. (Those players would be about 30 Fargo rating points apart.)

In a race to 7 the 55% player is expected to win about 64% of the time. In a 7-ahead match, the 55% player will win 80% of the time (unless I made a mistake in excel).

For a 65%-35% single-game chance, the 7-ahead match still has a 10% chance to go 40 games or more and the weaker player has a 1% chance of winning. A race to 7 would give the weaker player a 13% chance to win.
 
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T

ThinSlice

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The only person that wins at 7 ahead for $100 is the owner of the pool hall.


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums
 
iusedtoberich

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
ThinSlice said:
The only person that wins at 7 ahead for $100 is the owner of the pool hall.


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums
Click to expand...

Yeah that is the truest post of this thread. 7 ahead is like a 500 bet minimum usually. It can take 2 days to finish if the players are evenly matched. No way I'd play it!
 
J

judochoke

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
when you say 7 ball,do you mean you didnt have to shoot the 7 ball? only the 6-8 and 9????

im about ready to start shooting for a few bucks, but im not a seasoned player or gambler. should i insist on getting all breaks and ball in hand after the break??

or is that too much to ask for? great post.
 
M

maha

from way back when
Silver Member
few players will give a spot that they can lose at. to win you have to find players you can beat even or spot them.
so few can gauge what is a fair spot so they give so little it doesnt matter, and the uninitiated think spots lie the 7 and out is a big spot. only if both players miss a lot then its a big spot as it comes into play every game.

in the pool room the game is won before you even play. if you cant tell if you will win or not you wont win.
 
jokrswylde

jokrswylde

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
judochoke said:
when you say 7 ball,do you mean you didnt have to shoot the 7 ball? only the 6-8 and 9????

im about ready to start shooting for a few bucks, but im not a seasoned player or gambler. should i insist on getting all breaks and ball in hand after the break??

or is that too much to ask for? great post.
Click to expand...

No, that means I win by pocketing the 7, 8, or 9. It really only 2 or 3 times, once I dropped the 8 on the break and won, once he left the 7 hanging and I hit an easy combo to win. Other than that, I feel like I would have won basically the same amount of games without that spot.

He definitely had his break working, and the 1 in the side, the wing ball, and usually 1 orn2 more would drop on his break. Taking that away from him would have been a much better spot for me.
 
David in FL

David in FL

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
jokrswylde said:
He definitely had his break working, and the 1 in the side, the wing ball, and usually 1 orn2 more would drop on his break. Taking that away from him would have been a much better spot for me.
Click to expand...

I doubt it.

You said yourself, your break isn’t great, and let’s face it, you’re not a big threat to run out after the break. Realistically, that means that he’s still going to get a shot (or more) at the table with several balls gone, now without having to give any other balls.

Your best bet would be the shortest race you could get with games on the wire.
 
jimmyco

jimmyco

NRA4Life
Silver Member
judochoke said:
when you say 7 ball,do you mean you didnt have to shoot the 7 ball? only the 6-8 and 9????

im about ready to start shooting for a few bucks, but im not a seasoned player or gambler. should i insist on getting all breaks and ball in hand after the break??

or is that too much to ask for? great post.
Click to expand...

Ask for the breaks and money ball in hand after the break.
 
iusedtoberich

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Was this the strongest player you’ve ever matched up with? Do you feel you learned any shots or patterns? That’s what I usually aim for with a much stronger opponent.
 
jokrswylde

jokrswylde

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
iusedtoberich said:
Was this the strongest player you’ve ever matched up with? Do you feel you learned any shots or patterns? That’s what I usually aim for with a much stronger opponent.
Click to expand...

Hmmm. Good question. The biggest thing I picked up was probably that he was planning to break out any clusters or problem balls very early. He would pass on a much easier shot and make it a difficult cut or even Bank it if it meant he could break out a problem more readily.

Runs where I would normally take what is given, break out a cluster of the opportunity arises, and look to play defense if not, he would take a much more offensive minded approach. Pretty educational.

Dont get me wrong, this guy wasn't SVB by any means, he left a few hangers and even flat out missed a few shots, but if he had an open table, he was a big favorite to get out a high percentage of the time. Whereas recently when I play the 9 ball ghost without BIH, I usually lose 10-6 or somewhere around there.

As far as the best I've played, nah. I played a local dude named Billy Young one time, won the coin flip for the break, and didnt shoot again. It was a race to 5 and he was just messing around.
 
S

SBC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
jokrswylde said:
Last week I was approached by a guy wanting some action. He was told that I like to play for cheap, and there weren't many other folks gambling. He approached me to play some 9 ball, and even though I mainly play 8 ball, I told him I was game if we could make a good game.

I knew that this dude is better than me, the rumor is that he is around a 620-640 FR. He wanted to play 7 ahead for 100 bucks. I told him I preferred a straight race to 7, but he was adamant about the 7 ahead.

I told him I wanted the 7 out and the breaks, he laughed. Well after haggling and hemming and hawing, the game was decided on;

7 ahead 9 ball for a hundo
7 ft diamond
I got the 7 out and the first 4 breaks, winner breaks after that.
He paid for all games( he had a big sackful of quarters.
3 foul rule in effect.

I was expecting to get boat-raced, as I very seldom play 9 ball, but I was shooting pretty well and after my first four breaks I was 3 ahead with 2 BnR's and he was mumbling about being in a trap.

The tide really turned when this dude got to break...he basically played 5 or 6 ball after he broke, as it seemed 3 or 4 balls dropped every time he cracked them. We were back to even very quickly and stayed right around there, with neither getting more than 2 ahead for the next hour or so.

My break was very shaky, and eventually non existent. I broke dry 4 or 5 times in a row, and he got out almost every time. Just like that, he was moving the chip around to the 7th diamond and it was over.

In looking back, I imagine there is a reason he insisted on 7ahead vs. a race format, but I cant figure out why.

Also, the 7 out spot only helped me maybe 2 or 3 games the entire match..it seems that spot is really inconsequential for a run out player, but makes a weaker player feel like he is getting an advantage. (I should have told him to stuff the 7 out and insisted on getting the breaks, would have been a much better spot for me)

All in all, it was fun...not a 100 bucks fun, but fun nevertheless.
I certainly need to practice 9 ball more before playing this guy again, and try to figure out how to turn my break into a weapon instead of a liability.

When it comes to the spot, I think I would be better served getting games on the wire vs. a ball spot. Thoughts or advice?
Click to expand...

7 out means a lot less on a barbox versus a 9 foot table. Good players will reliably clean up the last 3 balls on a barbox. Still it's a big spot.

7 ahead for 100 is a lot. Could take several hours. That said if he wanted to have time to exert his superior firepower, this would allow it.

Play him again. Try to get all the breaks. It would negate whatever his break and run percentage is. On a barbox that's likely 20%from the sounds of his rating.

No matter what people tell you... Gambling is the best way to get better and ensure that you are getting his best game. Don't worry about getting weight... Soon enough you will be giving it up to get action.
 
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S

SBC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
judochoke said:
when you say 7 ball,do you mean you didnt have to shoot the 7 ball? only the 6-8 and 9????

im about ready to start shooting for a few bucks, but im not a seasoned player or gambler. should i insist on getting all breaks and ball in hand after the break??

or is that too much to ask for? great post.
Click to expand...
As the lesser player, you ask for the world.

I tell you that I'll give you the last 2 and I haven't hit a ball in 2 months!
 
Ken_4fun

Ken_4fun

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Ahead sets favors the strongest player ALWAYS.

9 ball is easy for adjusting spots. My advice is to do a race where you don't lose the spot (7, 8, the breaks).

Race to 7 with getting a game or two spot would help too.

Races to 7 for a $100 is fine.

Not only is he a better player than you, but he wins the set before a ball is even made by making better games than you do.

Think about it.

Ken
 
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