why did jose hit the 9 this way?

sparkle84

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
That is an outstanding question, thanks.

It is impossible to influence the cb after it leaves the cue tip. I agree with you.

There are three factors, not two, at the moment of impact, however, tip contact, shaft angle,

and the direction the cue stick traveled into impact.

AT THE POINT OF CONTACT, the direction the cue stick traveled into impact and the shaft angle are the SAME THING. What is so difficult to understand here?
Granted, the follow thru may result in the shaft veering off one way or another but so what. You yourself said " the cb doesn't care about post-impact cue
stick movement." What we're dealing with here is the 2 tip contacts in the diagram in post 98. According to you they result in different CB action. It's not magic.


A visualization can help you understand the third factor. Imagine you have elevated the cue stick to 30 degrees above the table for a jump shot. Now bring the cue stick forward gently, so that the cue tip comes to rest on the cue ball impact point--using the two factors for the jump shot, the tip contact and the shaft angle that you mentioned.
Next, broom or push the cue stick forward rather than down into the cue ball, so that the cue ball rolls forward rather than jumping into the air.

There is no "third factor". At the moment of contact you either hit down with the corresponding CB action or you hit forward thru with it's corresponding CB action. You can't do both. Well, maybe you can, but I can't.
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It's easy to see how either or both could be believed, especially if you're good enough to swoop without losing too much accuracy.

But I'm pretty sure it's really just correcting for squirt the same way every other technique does: angling the direction of the tip's movement to the equal opposite angle of the squirt angle.

The pic below shows what I mean by the two techniques producing the same direction of tip movement (and the same amount of squirt) at contact.

pj
chgo

View attachment 525491

True, but if you can conceive of the possibility that the tip stays on the cue ball longer with a swoop, then maybe there is less squirt, especially being that the pool cue is directly over the line of the shot (from the tip to the butt) at initial contact. I'm still not ready to give up on that possibility yet.
 
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BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
I think if I need to learn to use a swoop stroke to get more spin, then there's definitely something else major I need to work on prior to using the karate sweep on whitey that got me into that position in the first place.

I know nothing about swooping and I'll keep it that way. If a beginner can't shoot straight, it would be a interesting watch for them learning this swoop stroke. lol

Hi Ken, I didn't say "beginners who can't shoot straight" as you wrote. Instead, players who've played well with the vertical axis, who've also struggled with english for years, learn a slight swoop from me to help them with english and control.

The swoop is for pros, not just beginners and intermediates.

If you'd like to learn the swoop stroke--just to try something new--I'd be happy to help you.
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
It's easy to see how either or both could be believed, especially if you're good enough to swoop without losing too much accuracy.

But I'm pretty sure it's really just correcting for squirt the same way every other technique does: angling the direction of the tip's movement to the equal opposite angle of the squirt angle.

The pic below shows what I mean by the two techniques producing the same direction of tip movement (and the same amount of squirt) at contact.

pj
chgo

View attachment 525491

Tip position and stick angle at time of contact are two factors influencing the cue ball. The third is the direction the cue stick traveled to reach impact. I've given an illustration above--aim for a jump stroke then roll the cue ball forward by stroking forward like a regular shot, rather than downward butt-to-tip.

Same stick angle, same tip hit on the cue ball, different direction of cue stick travel, different result.
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
That is an outstanding question, thanks.

It is impossible to influence the cb after it leaves the cue tip. I agree with you.

There are three factors, not two, at the moment of impact, however, tip contact, shaft angle,



AT THE POINT OF CONTACT, the direction the cue stick traveled into impact and the shaft angle are the SAME THING. What is so difficult to understand here?
Granted, the follow thru may result in the shaft veering off one way or another but so what. You yourself said " the cb doesn't care about post-impact cue
stick movement." What we're dealing with here is the 2 tip contacts in the diagram in post 98. According to you they result in different CB action. It's not magic.




There is no "third factor". At the moment of contact you either hit down with the corresponding CB action or you hit forward thru with it's corresponding CB action. You can't do both. Well, maybe you can, but I can't.

Please see my reply immediately above re: a cue stick angled for a jump stroke, then let's please discuss this third factor.

Thanks.
 

KenRobbins

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hi Ken, I didn't say "beginners who can't shoot straight" as you wrote. Instead, players who've played well with the vertical axis, who've also struggled with english for years, learn a slight swoop from me to help them with english and control.

The swoop is for pros, not just beginners and intermediates.

If you'd like to learn the swoop stroke--just to try something new--I'd be happy to help you.

I appreciate the offer Matt, but I have to pass. I don't have issues with deflection, dealing with squirt or putting English on the ball. One thing I noticed is your patience with your posts, which is great for teaching. Our chemistry won't click as teacher and student. You seem like a good guy, I'd still buy you a beer, though.
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
What influence does stick angle have?

pj
chgo

I was including stick angle to be polite and acknowledge the opposing viewpoints. Stick angle, of course, equals tip section that strikes the cue ball.

A more subtle difference could come with a stroke that bends the cue stick before impact, like swooping during a powerful open break stroke--mass directly behind or indirectly behind the point of impact.
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
I appreciate the offer Matt, but I have to pass. I don't have issues with deflection, dealing with squirt or putting English on the ball. One thing I noticed is your patience with your posts, which is great for teaching. Our chemistry won't click as teacher and student. You seem like a good guy, I'd still buy you a beer, though.

Beer is on me when you visit Gainesville, Florida. Thank you.
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It's easy to see how either or both could be believed, especially if you're good enough to swoop without losing too much accuracy.

But I'm pretty sure it's really just correcting for squirt the same way every other technique does: angling the direction of the tip's movement to the equal opposite angle of the squirt angle.

The pic below shows what I mean by the two techniques producing the same direction of tip movement (and the same amount of squirt) at contact.

pj
chgo

View attachment 525491

I think Fran kind of already said that when she wrote, "I think it may have been the precursor to the pivot stroke."
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Guys, think about this regarding a swoop stroke and how long the tip may stay on the cue ball:

At impact, the pool cue is directly over the line of the shot. Initial contact is on the center axis. If the cue ball leaves the tip immediately, then where does the side spin come from?
 

sparkle84

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Did anyone on this thread say "more" spin? Multiple people have posted that question, but no one here has claimed such.

Following is a quote by you in post 31. "Now I agree with you regarding the use of the shot. But when you have an ob close to the pocket and a cb nearby the ob, and want to really work that english without the offset cue near the miscue point... "

If you're not saying that a swoop stroke will generate more english then what exactly are you saying? "really work that english would, to most people, indicate we're going to spin the hell out of that ball. Dan Whites question arose from previous comments on this thread. I don't think he just dreamed it up based on nothing. I've seen many, many posts by him and always found them to be logical and well thought out.

I'm saying more control (less miscue action) and I'm saying so many pros use a swoop that asking for "demonstrations" is not a need.

`If there are that many pros that employ a swoop stroke it should be a very simple for you to put up a couple links to videos of said pros using it.
 
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sparkle84

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yes, it was easily proven in numerous lessons, by me. Your use of "it" above is telling--no matter how many times I ask people to try it at the tables (learn for themselves when they're being argumentative) they assess from the comfort of an armchair.

I try to be Socratic, so you can learn, thus, some questions:

1) How many pros advocate avoiding dead center ball, and strike above or below dead center, when playing the vertical axis--where you would strike dead center?

2) How many pros say "we pros tend to spin most shots in"? How is this done? Dead center vertical axis strokes with center cue tip, do you think?

3) Do all the pro strokes you've seen that veer after impact have the "problems" that were diagnosed in the video on this thread--or could something else be happening?

PS. Do you stand corrected on the s-swoop stroke? Or will it be your stock-in-trade to call me nonsensical every time I point out your errors?[/Q

1) Could you name some pros as I can't recall having heard one say that.
2) Again, could you please name some as I've never heard one say that either.
3) Video please, because I've watched (in person) and also played, many many pros and I have to tell you that I didn't see much veering going on.
On the contrary I spent a lot of time marveling at how perfectly straight that final stroke was.
 

sparkle84

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Please see my reply immediately above re: a cue stick angled for a jump stroke, then let's please discuss this third factor.

Thanks.

Once again, there seems to be a failure to communicate. I don't have to see your above reply about this third factor, I already read that in post 75. In post 101 I disagreed with your contention that this third factor exists. I'll repeat "There is no "third factor". At the moment of contact you either hit down with the corresponding CB action or you hit forward thru with it's corresponding CB action. You can't do both. Well, maybe you can, but I can't.
Your contention seems to be that the CB can be struck in 2 different ways at the same time. Unless you can come up with some proof that this is possible then there's really nothing to discuss.
Also, if you wish to rely on some wildly extended tip contact time or "the tip riding around the circumference of the CB" I wouldn't be interested in discussing that pipe dream either.
It appears we're just going to have to disagree.
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
Following is a quote by you in post 31. "Now I agree with you regarding the use of the shot. But when you have an ob close to the pocket and a cb nearby the ob, and want to really work that english without the offset cue near the miscue point... "

If you're not saying that a swoop stroke will generate more english then what exactly are you saying? "really work that english would, to most people, indicate we're going to spin the hell out of that ball. Dan Whites question arose from previous comments on this thread. I don't think he just dreamed it up based on nothing. I've seen many, many posts by him and always found them to be logical and well thought out.



`If there are that many pros that employ a swoop stroke it should be a very simple for you to put up a couple links to videos of said pros using it.

"Really work heavy english--near the miscue limit--without a miscue".

Perhaps read Fran's prior posts on the prevalence of pros swooping years back.
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
Yes, it was easily proven in numerous lessons, by me. Your use of "it" above is telling--no matter how many times I ask people to try it at the tables (learn for themselves when they're being argumentative) they assess from the comfort of an armchair.

I try to be Socratic, so you can learn, thus, some questions:

1) How many pros advocate avoiding dead center ball, and strike above or below dead center, when playing the vertical axis--where you would strike dead center?

2) How many pros say "we pros tend to spin most shots in"? How is this done? Dead center vertical axis strokes with center cue tip, do you think?

3) Do all the pro strokes you've seen that veer after impact have the "problems" that were diagnosed in the video on this thread--or could something else be happening?

PS. Do you stand corrected on the s-swoop stroke? Or will it be your stock-in-trade to call me nonsensical every time I point out your errors?[/Q

1) Could you name some pros as I can't recall having heard one say that.
2) Again, could you please name some as I've never heard one say that either.
3) Video please, because I've watched (in person) and also played, many many pros and I have to tell you that I didn't see much veering going on.
On the contrary I spent a lot of time marveling at how perfectly straight that final stroke was.

1) Aiming at dead center/striking at dead center cue ball is challenging for many players...

A punch stun shot is snapped or punched ⅛" below center. Let the lower arm do most of the work for this stroke.

Willie Mosconi liked to shoot a sixteenth of an inch below center, letting the curvature of his cue tip create stun. There may be an audible pop made when you play this stroke.

A stun-run through is another Mosconi favorite. Aim just above center and run the cue ball just through where the nearby object ball sits now.

I learned this one from Nick Varner in person - the "dead stun spot" is about halfway between the center and bottom of the cue ball. Jack up the cue slightly with your stroke hand. Stroke medium or medium-soft over most cue ball-object ball distances. The ball stops like magic. At close range, you can strike through cue ball center to stop the cue ball after full impact with an object ball. But over this or most any other distance, we can aim lower than center cue ball and/or hit harder if not using the dead stun spot.

Here's a (some pros use this) pro way to play topspin, called "walking the ladder". Aim and practice stroke center ball, take the final backstroke, and on the final forward stroke only, come up to hit the cue ball high. The stick angle helps the immediate forward roll.

2) Have you read on this thread that it was called "carabao english" for quite a while when world-beating Filipino pros were showing it off prominently? I can't give you citations for what pros have told me in person, but here's one from an article:

According to Earl Strickland, currently ranked #4 and winner of dozens of pro events, "I've played so much that I don't have to think about it. But I also spin the balls in, as I think many of the pros do; they're using so much english all the time. Pros spin the ball in the hole and that's mostly from feel. If you're really going to learn to aim, you have to know better how to spin the ball, and what effect that's having on the object ball. Amateurs who don't spin the ball will have an easier time with straight aiming."

Source: http://www.sfbilliards.com/Misc/PnB_aiming.pdf

Before anyone says "He's speaking of throwing cuts in, not spinning them in," understand he's one of any number of pros who sometimes aligns a cut as a full shot along the line of centers than flicks on the stroke to cut the ball in, and if you think about it--I hope you people will (!)--starting center-to-center then flicking the cut in ALWAYS gives outside (anti-throw!) spin to the shot!

3) It's hard to see when a pro puts up a quarter tip of flicked or swooped english. But you've never seen a pro in person, or online, cut a ball in with spin so that their cue stick follow through was a diamond or more off the shot line? You marveled at straight pro strokes but can't think of a pro who addresses the dead center base of the cue ball then swoops up for center ball/follow? If they address the base of the ball on 100% of regular shots (no interference balls, etc.) how do they use any english at all without swooping for english?
 
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BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
Once again, there seems to be a failure to communicate. I don't have to see your above reply about this third factor, I already read that in post 75. In post 101 I disagreed with your contention that this third factor exists. I'll repeat "There is no "third factor". At the moment of contact you either hit down with the corresponding CB action or you hit forward thru with it's corresponding CB action. You can't do both. Well, maybe you can, but I can't.
Your contention seems to be that the CB can be struck in 2 different ways at the same time. Unless you can come up with some proof that this is possible then there's really nothing to discuss.
Also, if you wish to rely on some wildly extended tip contact time or "the tip riding around the circumference of the CB" I wouldn't be interested in discussing that pipe dream either.
It appears we're just going to have to disagree.

I don't understand. Perhaps I can clarify for us?

One always has two choices--usually we stroke the cue stick in the butt-to-tip direction or we can divert it. You are saying the path the cue stick takes to impact has no bearing on the shot. Respectfully, I disagree: I can elevate my cue stick 30 degrees off the floor, as if I'm going to jump the cue ball several inches into the air, and then, instead of stroking butt-to-tip, I can stroke "forward" parallel to the shot line to get much more of a rolling action than a jumping action--you can do so too, and probably should, if you disbelieve that the path the cue stick takes to impact has no bearing on the shot. I never said "two motions at once" but I've said "swoop is a curved, not linear path to impact" and "different approach angels yield different cue ball actions for different shots all else the same".

I think you're opposed to some of these concepts because of canards--I know it's tiring to argue for the truth when others in old AZ threads argued very poorly for swooping. For example, I'm not talking of a "wildly extended tip contact time", rather I'm talking about an optimal angle for the approach to the shot.

If you believe what I'm saying in the first paragraph above, we can move on to discuss the second paragraph, as friends.

Thanks!
 
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Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Guys, think about this regarding a swoop stroke and how long the tip may stay on the cue ball:

At impact, the pool cue is directly over the line of the shot. Initial contact is on the center axis. If the cue ball leaves the tip immediately, then where does the side spin come from?
How do you know initial contact is on the center axis?

I've posted a simple test for this several times...

pj
chgo
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
You are saying the path the cue stick takes to impact has no bearing on the shot. Respectfully, I disagree
And yet you're apparently unable to say what difference it supposedly makes. Shouldn't an "instructor" be able to do that?

I'll ask again: what specific difference do you suppose the angle of the cue at impact makes?

pj
chgo
 
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