Does JB have to win?

The-Professor · Oct 22, 2017

OLD NO 9 said:
It wouldn't be Oscar

I love Justin's game, but his finishes didn't really warrant a Mosconi Cup Pick this year. I understand traveling is expensive and may not always be worth it to players. And.. yes, he's better than everyone on the team but Shane, but thats not the only consideration.

I think the player that really has a right to be upset (Unless he was asked and declined) was Donny Mills. He finished high in standings, is better than most of the players on the team (maybe everyone but Shane), was finishing high in tough tournaments around the selection dates, and apparently got passed over.

OLD NO 9 · Oct 22, 2017

The-Professor said:
I love Justin's game, but his finishes didn't really warrant a Mosconi Cup Pick this year. I understand traveling is expensive and may not always be worth it to players. And.. yes, he's better than everyone on the team but Shane, but thats not the only consideration.

By your own admission Justin would be the second best player. The criteria for making the team leaves a coaches pick. Why would any coach leave their second best player sitting in the stands?

The-Professor · Oct 23, 2017

OLD NO 9 said:
The-Professor said:

I love Justin's game, but his finishes didn't really warrant a Mosconi Cup Pick this year. I understand traveling is expensive and may not always be worth it to players. And.. yes, he's better than everyone on the team but Shane, but thats not the only consideration.

By your own admission Justin would be the second best player. The criteria for making the team leaves a coaches pick. Why would any coach leave their second best player sitting in the stands?

Click to expand...

it is possible that the coach viewed Justins lack of travel/tournament play (that counted towards Mosconi points) as a sign that he either. A. Took it for granted that he would be a coaches choice because he plays so well.... or B. That he didn't want to be on the team bad enough to chase the points (the way that several other players did).

Coaches do make decisions at times based on these types of considerations.

lfigueroa · Oct 23, 2017

If pool is your chosen profession, and the MC (for better or worse) is one of the premier events of your profession, you should be doing whatever necessary to qualify. If you don't have the "want to" and go so far as to publicly state you wouldn't be bothered not making the team, then you should not be chosen even if you are the best player on the planet.

In life, you have to work for what you want and almost universally a lack of motivation is recognized as a negative. People in charge make decisions based upon principle and concern over setting bad precedent, and once you select one player who has not gone all out to make the team, you are on a slippery slope in future years.

Is he good enough to play on the team, yes. Does he deserve to be on the team, no.

Lou Figueroa

OLD NO 9 · Oct 23, 2017

lfigueroa said:
If pool is your chosen profession, and the MC (for better or worse) is one of the premier events of your profession, you should be doing whatever necessary to qualify. If you don't have the "want to" and go so far as to publicly state you wouldn't be bothered not making the team, then you should not be chosen even if you are the best player on the planet.

In life, you have to work for what you want and almost universally a lack of motivation is recognized as a negative. People in charge make decisions based upon principle and concern over setting bad precedent, and once you select one player who has not gone all out to make the team, you are on a slippery slope in future years.

Is he good enough to play on the team, yes. Does he deserve to be on the team, no.

Lou Figueroa

Yea, hang those participation trophies high. I much prefer the ones earned for placing first.

lfigueroa · Oct 23, 2017

OLD NO 9 said:
Yea, hang those participation trophies high. I much prefer the ones earned for placing first.

I would hope that would not be at any cost.

Regrettably, in the pool, we sometimes ignore what is right and moral. The: oh, he puts on a good tournament mentality, in which we should excuse calling it a world championship when it is not; or screwing the players on the prize money; maybe manipulating the draw to favorably accommodate certain players; or just insert your favorite bit of skullduggery.

In every walk of life decision makers reward hand work and ambition with few free passes out there in the real world.

Lou Figueroa

sjm · Oct 23, 2017

OLD NO 9 said:
Does Justin Bergman have to win the US Open 9-ball for people to admit that there was a grave misjudgement perpetrated?

No, he doesn't.

Bergman was the best, and arguably the only solid, American player, at the 2016 Mosconi Cup. I don't know why past Mosconi performance is ignored when the Team USA wild cards are selected (Justin Hall, the only American that played well at the 2014 Mosconi was, similarly, omitted from the 2015 team).

The Bergman choice should have been obvious.

lfigueroa · Oct 23, 2017

sjm said:
No, he doesn't.

Bergman was the best player, and arguably the only solid American player, at the 2016 Mosconi Cup. I don't know why past Mosconi performance is ignored when the Team USA wild cards are selected (Justin Hall, the only American that played well at the 2014 Mosconi was, similarly, omitted from the 2015 team).

The Bergman choice should have been obvious.

Guess it wasn’t so obvious to Ruijsink.

Lou Figueroa
wadda he know

jay helfert · Oct 23, 2017

I'd say the jury is out on Johan until Dec. 7. As for.me I will wait to comment on his strategy. No question he is taking a far different couse than past Captains and we know how well they did. I kind of like the make up of this year's team. Team chemistry is vitally important. If they do nothing more than bring out the real SVB it will be a success. An on fire Shane could change everything!

It's George · Oct 24, 2017

How many years has Shane had to get on fire? He just hasn't done it at the MC.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

pmac666 · Oct 24, 2017

can it just be that JB is overrated (not only in fargo)?
sure, he wins alot bartable events, but i only very rarely see him in big fields on big tables! always have the feeling he doesnt really searching for the big competition.......(the few times i saw him on big tables, he didnt look like a top 15 player in the world.....by far and i watch alot of pool)
also his attitude towards the cup isnt very good, when he doesnt try to get the necessary points like everyone else (+ not getting the experience in those tourneys)! i think johan made the right decission, JB would have been a bad choice for the team and the chemistry after watching all the others chasing for the points! (and yes, i think he might be better than others on the team, but still...)

marek · Oct 24, 2017

pmac666 said:
can it just be that JB is overrated (not only in fargo)?
sure, he wins alot bartable events, but i only very rarely see him in big fields on big tables! always have the feeling he doesnt really searching for the big competition.......(the few times i saw him on big tables, he didnt look like a top 15 player in the world.....by far and i watch alot of pool)
also his attitude towards the cup isnt very good, when he doesnt try to get the necessary points like everyone else (+ not getting the experience in those tourneys)! i think johan made the right decission, JB would have been a bad choice for the team and the chemistry after watching all the others chasing for the points! (and yes, i think he might be better than others on the team, but still...)

As far as fargorate on small vs big tables goes I asked the same question 2-3 months back and Mike provided numbers which basically told the story that JB is even better on big tables than on small tables fargorate-wise. As far as team-chemistry goes I dont know the relationship between JB and US team members to judge the benefit of JB being/not being on the team but I can tell you that Johann definitely took into consideration JBs attitude towards this year MC point race and it basically killed any chance of JB being on the team.

spartan · Oct 24, 2017

I don't like popcorn but this is quite a popcorn worthy thread
Very frank almost harsh comments. :thumbup::thumbup:

justinb386 · Oct 24, 2017

trophycue said:
Plain and simple......he didn't earn it....others did. Are you gonna be the guy to tell Oscar, I dont care how much money you spent, how much time you put in . We're giving the spot to the guy that sat at home , and said I'm not even tryin and if they dont pick me I'm OK with that . Open your mind a li'l and let the cob webs out.

You make a great point. I think a player should have to earn their spot on the mosconi cup team, no matter how good they are. It is not right if they do not put in the work, and earn enough points to to earn their spot on the team. I assume that the players that are on the team earned their spot.

By the way, Bergman has been my favorite player for a long time. Always loved his playing style. I think he is really great. It is sad to hear that he is not on the team.

pmac666 · Oct 24, 2017

marek said:
As far as fargorate on small vs big tables goes I asked the same question 2-3 months back and Mike provided numbers which basically told the story that JB is even better on big tables than on small tables fargorate-wise. As far as team-chemistry goes I dont know the relationship between JB and US team members to judge the benefit of JB being/not being on the team but I can tell you that Johann definitely took into consideration JBs attitude towards this year MC point race and it basically killed any chance of JB being on the team.

jep i saw that, only i dont have much faith in fargo!
maybe JB is a top 15 player in the world......only a real proof is somehow missing other than his annual 5th to 33th place at the US open and that he wants to play for big dollars (where he basically exludes himself from being top 15 by not wanting to play the asians and shane)!
as said, he might be top 15, only i dont buy it aslong as i see some proof in form of big tourney results! (like albin maybe, whos still behind JB i think lolol) but ofc that requires travelling and the will to do it, so i guess we will never see how good JB really is.......

jokrswylde · Oct 24, 2017

pmac666 said:
jep i saw that, only i dont have much faith in fargo!
maybe JB is a top 15 player in the world......only a real proof is somehow missing other than his annual 5th to 33th place at the US open and that he wants to play for big dollars (where he basically exludes himself from being top 15 by not wanting to play the asians and shane)!
as said, he might be top 15, only i dont buy it aslong as i see some proof in form of big tourney results! (like albin maybe, whos still behind JB i think lolol) but ofc that requires travelling and the will to do it, so i guess we will never see how good JB really is.......

I get what you are saying, and I don't know the financials, but it seems to me that if you are having to pay your way to big, overseas tournaments, where there is a good chance you won't even break even unless you win, then you have to weigh the feasibility of even going. I mean, when you play pool, and it costs you money instead of making money, isn't it then just an expensive hobby that you are really good at, and not a profession??

Maybe some of these guys need to start a go fund me for tourney costs...seems like folks will start a go fund me for anything nowadays

The-Professor · Oct 24, 2017

pmac666 said:
can it just be that JB is overrated (not only in fargo)?
sure, he wins alot bartable events, but i only very rarely see him in big fields on big tables! always have the feeling he doesnt really searching for the big competition.......(the few times i saw him on big tables, he didnt look like a top 15 player in the world.....by far and i watch alot of pool)
also his attitude towards the cup isnt very good, when he doesnt try to get the necessary points like everyone else (+ not getting the experience in those tourneys)! i think johan made the right decission, JB would have been a bad choice for the team and the chemistry after watching all the others chasing for the points! (and yes, i think he might be better than others on the team, but still...)

There aren't lots of big table events in the U.S with big fields so you don't see him a lot in those for sure.

As far as being overrated... He offered the United States, like everyone here (except Shane) 10 games going to 100 and has had no takers as of yet (that I am aware of). He has also tortured Jason Shaw and Oscar in long races for big money on big tables in the recent past. So he obviously plays great. he did play horrible last night (by his standards), I'm guessing he would agree with that.

I agree he didn't seem to chase cup points this year (which I don't blame him because its expensive), but I don't think that has any negative bearing on his "chemistry" with the team (not sure why you think that). I believe he is good friends with several members of team USA and fully expect him to be a contributing member of the Mosconi Cup in the future.

pmac666 · Oct 24, 2017

jokrswylde said:
I get what you are saying, and I don't know the financials, but it seems to me that if you are having to pay your way to big, overseas tournaments, where there is a good chance you won't even break even unless you win, then you have to weigh the feasibility of even going. I mean, when you play pool, and it costs you money instead of making money, isn't it then just an expensive hobby that you are really good at, and not a profession??

Maybe some of these guys need to start a go fund me for tourney costs...seems like folks will start a go fund me for anything nowadays

yeah i understand that thinking, he takes the easy way winning some regional bartourneys instead of going the hard way and thats cool, if it is for him, lazy azz as i am, i fully understand that take........ buuuut theres also the competetive poolplayer in me, who would work and travell his azz off blessed with that much talent, and at all costs, no regrets when losing money on the way for trying to bark with the dogs to become maybe one of them.......but hey, we in old europe grew up playing for cups, not for money (maybe one of the countless reasons we took over)

pmac666 · Oct 24, 2017

The-Professor said:
There aren't lots of big table events in the U.S with big fields so you don't see him a lot in those for sure.

As far as being overrated... He offered the United States, like everyone here (except Shane) 10 games going to 100 and has had no takers as of yet (that I am aware of). He has also tortured Jason Shaw and Oscar in long races for big money on big tables in the recent past. So he obviously plays great. he did play horrible last night (by his standards), I'm guessing he would agree with that.

I agree he didn't seem to chase cup points this year (which I don't blame him because its expensive), but I don't think that has any negative bearing on his "chemistry" with the team (not sure why you think that). I believe he is good friends with several members of team USA and fully expect him to be a contributing member of the Mosconi Cup in the future.

i dont say he is bad for chemistry, the situation would be bad for chemistry when JB gets a spot and someone like oscar doesnt......
and for the gambling offer, isnt it much more interresting who is all excluded from that offer? no asians, no shanes and the euros wouldnt play anyways......so, theres not much left and im very unsure if he would give jayson 10 games as of today lol

jasonlaus · Oct 24, 2017

pmac666 said:
i dont say he is bad for chemistry, the situation would be bad for chemistry when JB gets a spot and someone like oscar doesnt......
and for the gambling offer, isnt it much more interresting who is all excluded from that offer? no asians, no shanes and the euros wouldnt play anyways......so, theres not much left and im very unsure if he would give jayson 10 games as of today lol

More like Shaw giving him 10 games

Does JB have to win?

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