Do tip scuffers work?

Tip scuffers?

I've been using a dime sized Willards shaper that Jim Willard gave me at a BCA Trade Show, probably 20 years ago. It works great, I just clean it with an old toothbrush. If I just want to scuff up a very hard tip, I use these little sanding pads that you can buy at hobby stores. They are about 220 on one side and very fine on the other. They work great for a touchup during a match if you need to.

I've used several different scuffers and now I've settled with the Willards nickel scuffer/shaper which I think is what I started with.

I had a Porper shaper/tacker that worked great years and years ago so I ordered another one a few months ago. I'm not sure if I just got a bad one or if they have changed, but after shaping a new tip all the shaping tacks in it were worn flat making it useless. I will never buy another one again.

ShootingArts said:

Ice wedges the stone apart because splits are angled.

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Actually, I think it's like I said: water seeps into cracks and crevices and then expands when it freezes. It doesn't get driven in like a wedge into a log.

Chalk in an angled hole does the same thing if the hole is deep enough like the holes some of the sharp pointed tools make.

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1) What does "angled hole" mean?

2) The holes made by a Tip Pik aren't deep at all. I doubt that they penetrate more than one layer of a layered tip with normal use.

3) What other sharp pointed tools are there beside the Tip Pik?

Chalk particles measure as small as .0005 to .0015(yes I just, measured some) The holes are closer to ten times that at the top leaving plenty of room for the chalk to get packed and wedged into the holes.

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I think you're being pretty liberal with your use of terms like "packed and wedged". I also think holes made by picks in tips mostly close up when the pick is removed. Have you measured any actual holes below the surface in actual tips?

Keep wedging something very hard that doesn't compress or compact past a certain point into something that can give, I'll let you figure out what happens.

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I've split logs lots of times, and I've used a Tip Pik every time I've played pool for the past decade or more - with no mushrooming or ill effects whatsoever. The two have nothing to do with each other.

Sorry, but your analogy just doesn't apply and your concern about harming tips is unwarranted. Picking does nothing bad to tips.

Have you ever used a pick for any length of time?

pj
chgo

I have found that the round Williard's is the best. I only use it on bar or house cues. On my own playing cue all I ever use is chalk. I use a layered tip and for me they don't mushroom or flatten out. I am not a hard hitter. When and if the tip gets bad I have it replaced. Save your money and don't fall for all of the gadgets that you don't need. Just buy the Willard's.

Patrick Johnson said:

Actually, I think it's like I said: water seeps into cracks and crevices and then expands when it freezes. It doesn't get driven in like a wedge into a log.

How does a wedge work? It applies pressure equally on both sides of it. How does ice apply pressure in a crack when water freezes? It applies pressure equally on both sides of it. You can also break or split most things by filling a cavity with something that doesn't compress and then applying more pressure forcing it out in all directions equally, filling a cavity with sand and striking too hard with a tamping tool for example, or filling a hole with angled sides in a cue tip with chalk particles and then hammering the tip into a cue ball.


1) What does "angled hole" mean?

Well PJ, That means "angled hole"

2) The holes made by a Tip Pik aren't deep at all. I doubt that they penetrate more than one layer of a layered tip with normal use.

That is plenty. Destroying one layer at a time still makes me a lot of money. Plus you are still damaging multiple layers at a time unless you play with a flat tip.

3) What other sharp pointed tools are there beside the Tip Pik?

I have seen several. I pretty much ignore gadgets so probably they have came and gone. My brad shaper has been getting the job done for almost forty years without going through tips every few months like some do.


I think you're being pretty liberal with your use of terms like "packed and wedged". I also think holes made by picks in tips mostly close up when the pick is removed. Have you measured any actual holes below the surface in actual tips?

Actually I'm not liberal about anything!

I have made holes in leather countless times, they didn't magically disappear when the tool was removed.


I've split logs lots of times, and I've used a Tip Pik every time I've played pool for the past decade or more - with no mushrooming or ill effects whatsoever. The two have nothing to do with each other.

Congratulations Paul, when did I compare tips to logs?


Sorry, but your analogy just doesn't apply and your concern about harming tips is unwarranted. Picking does nothing bad to tips.

Have you ever used a pick for any length of time?

No, I haven't. I have seen the damage and replaced the tips that people used picks on though. I love tip picks . . . . . . for other people to use!

pj
chgo

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Just to give you something else to start a long running disagreement about, water is wet!

Hu

Again it all comes down to correct use of a tool, if you get out of hand with a tip pik you can easily destroy a tip if you use it with some common sense then it is a good tool, I have a Brad on my keyring and often someone asks to borrow it and they then destroy a tip with it. Simple sandpaper or most scuffers work fine if used with common sense if you use something and get less then desireable results use it different or try something else.

right you are!

2rgrbn said:

Again it all comes down to correct use of a tool, if you get out of hand with a tip pik you can easily destroy a tip if you use it with some common sense then it is a good tool, I have a Brad on my keyring and often someone asks to borrow it and they then destroy a tip with it. Simple sandpaper or most scuffers work fine if used with common sense if you use something and get less then desireable results use it different or try something else.

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You are right that the user has a lot to do with it but the tool does also. Many people go through tips faster than they need to with the tip picks and the Willard shapers which are good tools for shaping but not for scuffing. Any tool can be misused and the Brad tool has the potential to be a great tool or people can ruin tips with it too. With a Brad tool used the way I recommend using it a tip lasts many times longer for my customers than the way they were using various picking tools in the past.

Hurts my own business every time I show someone how to maintain a tip in a pool hall. I roll dimples into a tip with very minimal damage. Any time you raise a feather edge you have damaged a tip, the people driving deep holes into their tips not only do more immediate damage they pave the way for additional damage.

Hu

the people driving deep holes into their tips not only do more immediate damage they pave the way for additional damage.

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My tips are layered, only 10mm wide, and last a year or more with no damage of any kind even though I pick them every time I play. The only reason I need to replace them is that they eventually get too thin from reshaping.

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson said:

My tips are layered, only 10mm wide, and last a year or more with no damage of any kind even though I pick them every time I play. The only reason I need to replace them is that they eventually get too thin from reshaping.

pj
chgo

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Why do you have to reshape them?

Hu

The Players Pulse, a live billiards show is doing a short segment on which scuffers work and dont tonight. The show atarts at 9pm EST and runs an hour if anyone wants to check out the segment on scuffers.

You can find it at www.playerstourproductions.com then choose The Players Pulse from the main menu.

Enjoy

One thing that should be added is when a tip is initially shaped it should be rotating. This allows the guy working on it to form it consistently, once the general shape (nickel curvature) is established then with the rotation some water and a business card or similar you can burnish the sides of the tip and this helps it to maintain its shape over longer periods. After the burnishing an edge must be put on the outer forward surface. So now you have a decent foundation and it is much easier to maintain. When I was building cues and had a lathe I did all of this with Sandpaper now I get my rotation with a drill and my foot so I use a Brad Scuffer. Another thing to consider is the type of tip. In the case of the tip tappers I got a more desired effect by rolling the cue along them then when I tapped he tip. I don't use a tip pik but certainly it looks like it would work fine if you don't get carried away with it.

My tips are layered, only 10mm wide, and last a year or more with no damage of any kind even though I pick them every time I play. The only reason I need to replace them is that they eventually get too thin from reshaping.

pj
chgo

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Why do you have to reshape them?

Hu

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Because they flatten slightly from use. I reshape once or twice a month (using the dime size shaper in an Ultimate Tip Tool) to keep them more rounded.

pj
chgo

where does the material go?

Patrick Johnson said:

Because they flatten slightly from use. I reshape once or twice a month (using the dime size shaper in an Ultimate Tip Tool) to keep them more rounded.

pj
chgo

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You claim that the tip doesn't mushroom, nor does the tip pick remove material. When the tip flattens from use, where does the material go? Leather only compacts to a certain degree hitting a cue ball. How does "use" flatten a tip until it is too thin to use?

Hu

I've been using the TipPik for quite a while now and I'm very happy with it. It has significantly prolonged the life of my tips and they also hold chalk better than ever. I think it's a great product. I've had no problems with mushrooming whatsoever.

ShootingArts said:

You claim that the tip doesn't mushroom, nor does the tip pick remove material. When the tip flattens from use, where does the material go? Leather only compacts to a certain degree hitting a cue ball. How does "use" flatten a tip until it is too thin to use?

Hu

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Chalk is abrasive. It wears away the leather.

I use a willards shaper, and when it gets filled with leather bits, I let it soak in some amonia. It seems to clean them out real well. The I just rinse it out with water.
I only scuff when the tip looks out of shape, or when the tip does not seem to hold chalk. I like the willards alot and they are quit cheap, last at least 3 years so far , and is like new still.
Neil

ShootingArts said:

... How does "use" flatten a tip until it is too thin to use?

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I don't know. Where did you get that idea?

pj
chgo

your posts 28 and 32

Do try to at least keep up with what you just said.

Hu

Patrick Johnson said:

I don't know. Where did you get that idea?

pj
chgo

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seems reasonable but it is wrong

Frankenstroke said:

Chalk is abrasive. It wears away the leather.

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If the abrasive chalk particles were adhered firmly to the chalk cube you would probably be correct. However the whole reason chalk works for it's purpose is that it is more loosely bound to itself than it binds to the leather of the tip. What actually has the primary wearing or cutting action are the chalk particles that are embedded in the tip and stationary.

I just treated a 1.5 inch long piece of leather by attaching it to a half inch thick piece of stone and then rubbing a piece of chalk over the surface which was very similar to a tip in texture. After conditioning the leather to match a typical tip with some use, I cleaned as much chalk out of it as possible and measured the thickness of the leather. Then I started rubbing a cube of chalk against it that had already been ground flat. I held the leather vertically so chalk dust could fall freely and I also cleaned the leather very frequently in an effort to expose it to the chalk cube as much as possible.

When I completed the test I had cut just over 100/1000", one-tenth of an inch, off of the chalk cube.(Master blue, flag) The leather measured exactly the same as before testing after cleaning. Not even .001 lost. The leather tip holding the grit works much the same way as a leather strop holding grit is used to sharpen fine steel. This isn't to say that no leather is lost, however the abrasive action of chalk is not the cause of significant leather loss.

Rubbing the chalk across the top of the tip doesn't explain tip flattening, most experienced shooters focus chalking towards the edge of the tip where it is needed anyway which would round the tip more if the abrasive action of chalk was the reason for leather removal.

Hu

Hu:
When the tip flattens from use, where does the material go? Leather only compacts to a certain degree hitting a cue ball.

...How does "use" flatten a tip until it is too thin to use?

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Me:
I don't know. Where did you get that idea?

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Hu:
your posts 28 and 32

Do try to at least keep up with what you just said.

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We can read what I said:

Me (#28):
My tips are layered, only 10mm wide, and last a year or more with no damage of any kind even though I pick them every time I play. The only reason I need to replace them is that they eventually get too thin from reshaping.

Me (#32):
...they flatten slightly from use. I reshape once or twice a month (using the dime size shaper in an Ultimate Tip Tool) to keep them more rounded.

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Seems to me that I said reshaping does it, but then I can't keep up...

pj
chgo