Ball In Hand In Kitchen Shot Legal?

Patrick Johnson · Jun 9, 2015

WPA Says This Shot Is Legal?

Is the shot shown below legal with ball in hand in the kitchen? WPA rules seem to say so.

The rules say a ball's position is where its base is (where it touches the cloth):

8.13 Position of Balls
The position of a ball is determined by the projection of its center vertically downward onto the playing surface.

And they say the CB can hit an OB in the kitchen if the CB has crossed the head string:

6.11 Bad Play from Behind the Head String
When the cue ball is in hand behind the head string, and the first ball the cue ball contacts is also behind the head string, the shot is a foul unless the cue ball crosses the head string before that contact.

In the pic below both the CB and the OB start out completely inside the head string, but at the moment of contact the CB's base has crossed the head string (see the closeup below).

So is this shot legal with ball in hand in the kitchen?

pj
chgo

View attachment 98364

blackda · Jun 9, 2015

I don't think so because the object ball is in the kitchen. If the CB crossed the headstring hit the rail and came back to make contact, it would be legal.

pt109 · Jun 9, 2015

How we played it was...the contact point had to be out of the kitchen.
....so if the whole object ball was in the kitchen, you couldn't shoot it.

...that rule seemed fair to me

Patrick Johnson · Jun 9, 2015

blackda said:
I don't think so because the object ball is in the kitchen. If the CB crossed the headstring hit the rail and came back to make contact, it would be legal.

That's what I've always thought too. But the rule I quoted above doesn't say anything about needing to hit a rail - only that the CB must cross the headstring. Does that rule need editing, or have we both misunderstood it all this time?

pj
chgo

336Robin · Jun 9, 2015

According to the Rules...

Well it would seem that the shot is legal but I would think someone needs to reword those rules. The spirit of those rules was likely created to prevent such a shot but the wording failed to prevent the shot according to the verbiage. In my opinion you have found a flaw in the rules.

Patrick Johnson · Jun 9, 2015

pt109 said:
How we played it was...the contact point had to be out of the kitchen.
....so if the whole object ball was in the kitchen, you couldn't shoot it.

...that rule seemed fair to me

I've played that way too, but it seems to me the intent is to prohibit direct shots into the kitchen corner pockets. Maybe it should say that.

pj
chgo

Swighey · Jun 9, 2015

Patrick Johnson said:
I've played that way too, but it seems to me the intent is to prohibit direct shots into the kitchen corner pockets. Maybe it should say that.

pj
chgo

I think the rule is actually designed to take account of the neutrality of the break.

There is indeed a flaw in the rules and it needs to be reworded - WPA rules are great but the OP found an imperfection. At least the rule isn't as bad as the snooker one that has been in place for what feels like forever where if you pocket a red and foul your opponent gets 4 points rather than 8.

phil dade · Jun 9, 2015

I think the shot is not legal. I think the contact, or CB contacting a cushion outside the kitchen must occur prior to contact in the kitchen. Here you are shooting a ball behind the line, illegal. IMO

Patrick Johnson · Jun 9, 2015

Swighey said:
I think the rule is actually designed to take account of the neutrality of the break.

By neutralizing the reward a little?

pj
chgo

Swighey · Jun 9, 2015

Patrick Johnson said:
By neutralizing the reward a little?

pj
chgo

Essentially yes. It's a good rule.

hang-the-9 · Jun 9, 2015

Patrick Johnson said:
That's what I've always thought too. But the rule I quoted above doesn't say anything about needing to hit a rail - only that the CB must cross the headstring. Does that rule need editing, or have we both misunderstood it all this time?

pj
chgo

The cueball has to cross it, but also the ball you are hitting has to be past the line. If you move the center of the object ball past the line, you can probably cut it in then.

ChopStick · Jun 9, 2015

Patrick Johnson said:
Is the shot shown below legal with ball in hand in the kitchen? WPA rules seem to say so.

The rules say a ball's position is where its base is (where it touches the cloth):

And they say the CB can hit an OB in the kitchen if the CB has crossed the head string:

In the pic below both the CB and the OB start out completely inside the head string, but at the moment of contact the CB's base has crossed the head string (see the closeup below).

So is this shot legal with ball in hand in the kitchen?

pj
chgo

View attachment 98364

Yep. All day long. It is always judged by the base of the ball. The base of the cueball is over the line and therefore outside the kitchen. Legal shot.

mmwtdh · Jun 9, 2015

Pretty funny. I understand the intent, but I think you figured out an "out".

You have too much time on your hands......... :thumbup:

Mr. Bond · Jun 9, 2015

I've always understood it to mean that the cueball must leave the kitchen entirely before re-entering the kitch and making contact with the ob.

" entirely" meaning from edge to edge, which would obviously contradict the rule stated above. Implications duely noted.

On the other hand, the cueball did not have to touch a rail before re-entering, which leaves the carom and masse shot still available.

Patrick Johnson · Jun 9, 2015

hang-the-9 said:
... the ball you are hitting has to be past the line.

That's what I always thought too, but to my surprise that's not what the rule says.

It's not a big deal really - OBs can be legally backcut to the corner pockets from outside the kitchen, and this narrow range of shots along the headstring doesn't add much to that. I think it's more of an oddity than a problem.

pj
chgo

Swighey · Jun 9, 2015

Patrick Johnson said:
That's what I always thought too, but to my surprise that's not what the rule says.

It's not a big deal really - OBs can be legally backcut to the corner pockets from outside the kitchen, and this narrow range of shots along the headstring doesn't add much to that. I think it's more of an oddity than a problem.

pj
chgo

Agree - but I think the rule needs clarifying by the WPA. In refereed matches I imagine many of the refs would be unsure and would have to check the rulebook if a player asked whether he or she could legally play that shot. It probably never comes up though....

Colin Colenso · Jun 9, 2015

Nice catch PJ.

I'm pretty sure the rule writers just didn't think of the exception you gave here.

In the good old game of English Billiards, they covered this possibility specifically in part D and F below.

Colin

FranCrimi · Jun 9, 2015

Good catch and I agree it can be interpreted that way, but sometimes you have to know what the intention of the rule is, and it isn't always stated --- it's sometimes implied.

The base of the ball rule is intended for balls standing still. It was never intended for balls in motion or things that can't be seen with the naked eye.

TX Poolnut · Jun 9, 2015

Along the same vein, what if I masse the cue ball out of the kitchen to the center of the table without hitting a rail, then the spin draws it back into the kitchen contacting and sinking my object ball that was in the kitchen?

Bavafongoul · Jun 9, 2015

The shot in question, as illustrated in the ghost ball diagram of the cue ball position at the point of contact, clearly confirms the cue ball "has not" crossed the line.
The cue ball must make contact after crossing the line and not while the cue ball is passing over the line...... in actuality, the rear portion of the cue ball partially sits
atop the head string line at the point of contact with the object ball. So as your eyes will confirm, the cue ball truly does not cross the head string line prior to making
contact with the object ball. If the shooter plays the shot using English and the cue ball strikes the rail beyond the head string line and reverse kicks back into the
kitchen pocketing the object ball, the played shot is a legal hit. However, in some pool games, it may or may not be necessary to declare the intended pocket for
the object ball in order for the shooter to retain control of the table. This is something you have to learn at the very outset if you want to play straight pool

Matt B.

8.13 : The position of a ball is determined by the projection of its center vertically downward onto the playing surface.
Yes......do that with the cue ball in the diagram which sits on top of the line and "never crosses" it prior to contacting the object ball.

6.11: When the cue ball is in hand behind the head string, and the first ball the cue ball contacts is also behind the head string,
the shot is a foul unless the cue ball crosses the head string before that contact.......which physically impossible as diagrammed.

Ball In Hand In Kitchen Shot Legal?

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