Bad hit?

O

OILED

Registered
had a big,big controversy over a hit last night at league I will outline what happened and would like your input. (sorry I can't diagram it for you not that good at this computer stuff)

table orientation is head spot behind you and you are standing on the right side of the table CB and 9B are not frozen and the space is maybe business card or less. the balls are positioned approx 6" from side rail and a foot off bottom rail and are pointing to opposite corner pocket to be exact they are pointing to the tit on the side rail.

so first thought is shoot CB to short rail and let the throw send it to the pocket but being right handed it is a little far down table, at 5'7" I am to short for a good hit. second thought - safety, but with the balls so close can I even play an effective safety? I don't think so so I call my captain up for coach (knowledgeable player one of the top players if not the top player in our room)

we look at the shot and we discuss my options he thinks the best thing to do is masse/jump it and here is the set up and execution....he has me sit on the rail with my left butt cheek brace my arm against my body and jack up my cue vertically and drive the tip down through the CB at 7:00 position a tip from center and aiming toward the short rail meanwhile the opponent has the league director watch the hit which is his right so no problem.

so now I am set and ready to fire I pull the trigger and shoot the shot like a jump shot the CB leaves the table maybe a half an inch high and lands about a half inch past the tangent line the tip of my cue goes through the CB in a downward and backward motion (from 1 tip off center through the 7:00 like a watch hand and I plant it into the felt) the CB goes to the bottom rail hits and goes up table about 2' and the nine goes in.

I am stoked that I just pulled this off and in a millisecond the league director calls a bad hit. I say WTF are you talking about it was a good hit and his reply was that its impossible to be a good hit if the CB goes past the tangent line. if I had shot straight through it that would be true but I shot it like a jump/masse shot so this huge argument takes place between me, my captain and the director our argument is the shot was executed like a jump/masse and by this way of thinking it is a good hit.

he says "no" so we say if we jump a CB is that a good hit, he says yes, so we set up again and say/show a masse and ask is that a good hit he says yes, so why when the two are combined is it a bad hit and he says it "just is" if it passes the tangent line.

we argue (very loud and disruptive for all the other players in the room sorry) for 10/15 min at least. my opinion based on his quick call was that he had already made up his mind that it would be a bad hit before the shot was ever taken. we even set up the trick shot where the CB is frozen to an object ball against the rail and you "push" the CB with the stick and the object ball rolls down rail and pockets.(also a good hit)

my captain is a fair guy and he himself would call it a bad hit if it was. so at the end of the day we are all still friends and all apologies are accepted but we all agree to get more info and do some research on our own so as to not get into this again. I hope I have explained it enough for you to at least give me your opinions on this and hope it is not to long a read.....

BTW the way the opposing player said lets just play the game over which is big of him and we do and he wins good for him. I felt a better sense of fair play and am not dissappointed in my loss
 
stick8

stick8

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
what???

OILED said:
had a big,big controversy over a hit last night at league I will outline what happened and would like your input. (sorry I can't diagram it for you not that good at this computer stuff)

table orientation is head spot behind you and you are standing on the right side of the table CB and 9B are not frozen and the space is maybe business card or less. the balls are positioned approx 6" from side rail and a foot off bottom rail and are pointing to opposite corner pocket to be exact they are pointing to the tit on the side rail.

so first thought is shoot CB to short rail and let the throw send it to the pocket but being right handed it is a little far down table, at 5'7" I am to short for a good hit. second thought - safety, but with the balls so close can I even play an effective safety? I don't think so so I call my captain up for coach (knowledgeable player one of the top players if not the top player in our room)

we look at the shot and we discuss my options he thinks the best thing to do is masse/jump it and here is the set up and execution....he has me sit on the rail with my left butt cheek brace my arm against my body and jack up my cue vertically and drive the tip down through the CB at 7:00 position a tip from center and aiming toward the short rail meanwhile the opponent has the league director watch the hit which is his right so no problem.

so now I am set and ready to fire I pull the trigger and shoot the shot like a jump shot the CB leaves the table maybe a half an inch high and lands about a half inch past the tangent line the tip of my cue goes through the CB in a downward and backward motion (from 1 tip off center through the 7:00 like a watch hand and I plant it into the felt) the CB goes to the bottom rail hits and goes up table about 2' and the nine goes in.

I am stoked that I just pulled this off and in a millisecond the league director calls a bad hit. I say WTF are you talking about it was a good hit and his reply was that its impossible to be a good hit if the CB goes past the tangent line. if I had shot straight through it that would be true but I shot it like a jump/masse shot so this huge argument takes place between me, my captain and the director our argument is the shot was executed like a jump/masse and by this way of thinking it is a good hit.

he says "no" so we say if we jump a CB is that a good hit, he says yes, so we set up again and say/show a masse and ask is that a good hit he says yes, so why when the two are combined is it a bad hit and he says it "just is" if it passes the tangent line.

we argue (very loud and disruptive for all the other players in the room sorry) for 10/15 min at least. my opinion based on his quick call was that he had already made up his mind that it would be a bad hit before the shot was ever taken. we even set up the trick shot where the CB is frozen to an object ball against the rail and you "push" the CB with the stick and the object ball rolls down rail and pockets.(also a good hit)

my captain is a fair guy and he himself would call it a bad hit if it was. so at the end of the day we are all still friends and all apologies are accepted but we all agree to get more info and do some research on our own so as to not get into this again. I hope I have explained it enough for you to at least give me your opinions on this and hope it is not to long a read.....

BTW the way the opposing player said lets just play the game over which is big of him and we do and he wins good for him. I felt a better sense of fair play and am not dissappointed in my loss
Click to expand...

just drink another beer and forget, the td is allways right!!!!
 
ShootingArts

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
rule of thumb

The league director used a rule of thumb. While the rule of thumb would have been true for a typical shot there are several ways to get around the double hit and still have the cue ball go forward of the tangent line. Almost certainly a bad call by the LD for using the rule of thumb instead of what he saw and common sense assuming it wasn't a double hit. None of us that weren't there can call the shot.

Hu



OILED said:
had a big,big controversy over a hit last night at league I will outline what happened and would like your input. (sorry I can't diagram it for you not that good at this computer stuff)
Click to expand...
trimmed for length Hu
 
CreeDo

CreeDo

Fargo Rating 597
Silver Member
What Hu said!

Our local league rules say it's an ok hit if the cue ball goes no more than "half a ball" forward of the tangent line. But even that rule might not be accurate in every situation. Basically the reason it's possible for a ball to go forward of that line is that you jumped it a bit when you jack up like that. It's airborne and contacts the upward curve of the object ball while still furiously backspinning. The forward momentum of the ball isn't completely canceled out by this slightly airborne hit, so it will go forward (while airborne) a little bit before it grabs the cloth and the backspin takes it away.

You will know a true double hit because the second hit from the tip often sends the ball flying forward, not unlike a traditional push foul with a level cue. And there's usually a clear "ba-dump!" machine-gun-like sound from the two strikes.
 
IntoTheRail

IntoTheRail

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Man, the arguments I have had over such things....

It is such a grey area for most people. It sounds to me like you made a good hit. Half of me feels bummed for you but the other half is rejoicing the fact someone had the balls to call a double hit foul (even if they were wrong).

I have called double hit fouls on ppl where they shot right through the object ball and the cue ball actually ended up beating the object ball to the other end of the table. You call a foul and explain to them that it is not possible to stroke it like they did and get the cueball to actually pass the object ball without hitting it twice. The logic is always the same from the offending player...."but I put top on it". It makes my blood boil just thinking about it.

Perhaps your league operator is not a knowledgable player and just didnt know what to look for. Perhaps next time get a couple people to watch the shot that know what a foul looks like from that situation.
 
brechbt

brechbt

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think this could very well have been a foul, for a different reason than the usual double-hit argument. There were a few threads a while back concerning various claims to be able to jump a ball that was only a quarter inch or so in front of the CB. These claims were studied using slo-mo and it was found that in all cases the CB had a second hit off of the shaft of the cue, not the tip, which sent it forward over the impeding ball. In the original poster's description, he states that the CB and OB were only apart by the width of a business card. In that situation, it seems that trying a jump shot would have a high risk of the CB glancing off the shaft befor the shaft can get out of the way. That would account for the CB going past the tangent line.

These are very problematic calls to make, and IMO not worth arguing about if they go against you, because it's not possible without slo-mo photography and instand replay to know exactly what happened.
 
Tom In Cincy

Tom In Cincy

AKA SactownTom
Silver Member
IMO, that was a bad call.

The 'Rule' is a 'Guide line' for Refs according to World Standard Rules.

I have called good hits on plenty of shots that the cue is jacked up and actually hits the OB in the air and lands forward well beyond the tangent line, and then the cue ball either stops or reverse spins. Neither way is a bad hit.

Now I've also called it a bad hit because the Cue ball jumped and hit the OB and then came back and hit the tip, ferrule or shaft causing the Cue ball to suddenly stop.

From the description of your shot... you was robbed.
 
Andrew Manning

Andrew Manning

Aspiring know-it-all
Silver Member
So the shot looked like this?

CueTable Help



And the CB and 9B were ~1mm apart? I say bad hit. How far forward of the tangent line did the CB go? About what I diagrammed, less, more?

-Andrew
 
Patrick Johnson

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
I think Hu covered it nicely. It might or might not be a good hit; we can't say from here. It's only automatically a bad hit when the CB goes forward of the tangent line when there's no possibility of masse carrying the CB forward. When there could be masse then a knowledgable referee has to make a judgment based on what he sees. If he's not knowledgable, then you might get a bad call, but you're stuck with it. The best thing would be to agree on what criteria will be used to call the shot before it's taken.

pj
chgo
 
C

CharlesUFarley

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Andrew Manning said:
So the shot looked like this?

CueTable Help



And the CB and 9B were ~1mm apart? I say bad hit. How far forward of the tangent line did the CB go? About what I diagrammed, less, more?

-Andrew
Click to expand...
That is very close to the layout that the OP had. (I was there, although I didn't witness the shot. I saw it when they set it back up during the argument.) Your diagrammed path of the cue ball is probably very close as well but I don't think it continued its forward path...it drew a bit and bounced off the end rail and back to the rail he was sitting on.
 
jay helfert

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
The "bad" call is the result of two things - Poorly written rules and a not so knowledgeable person making the call. I've been seeing this stuff for so long it no longer surprises me. There are still only a handful (or two) of good referees in the whole country.

I had the following happen to me at the recent U.S. Bar Table Championships in Reno. The score was hill-hill (4-4) in an Eight Ball match. My opponent was shooting and he had to use the bridge to shoot over one of my balls. The cue ball was a about a quarter of an inch in front of my ball. He hit my ball with his cue while he was shooting, moving it about one inch. I then asked him if that was a foul. He said, "Why?" I said you moved my ball when you shot. He denied ever touching my ball. That did irritate me since there was no way he didn't see the ball move (he was looking right at it). Even a couple of players on the next table over saw the ball move.

Finally he agreed to ask the ref if that was a foul. We called him over and my opponent explained what happened on the shot, admitting for the first time that he moved the impeding ball while shooting. The ref said it was not a foul because the ball he moved did not touch the cue ball. ??? I didn't like it but accepted his decision since he was the tournament official. My opponent failed to get out and I did, winning the match.

My question to you is, did the official make the right call?
 
Tillman345

Tillman345

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
jay helfert said:
The "bad" call is the result of two things - Poorly written rules and a not so knowledgeable person making the call. I've been seeing this stuff for so long it no longer surprises me. There are still only a handful (or two) of good referees in the whole country.

I had the following happen to me at the recent U.S. Bar Table Championships in Reno. The score was hill-hill (4-4) in an Eight Ball match. My opponent was shooting and he had to use the bridge to shoot over one of my balls. The cue ball was a about a quarter of an inch in front of my ball. He hit my ball with his cue while he was shooting, moving it about one inch. I then asked him if that was a foul. He said, "Why?" I said you moved my ball when you shot. He denied ever touching my ball. That did irritate me since there was no way he didn't see the ball move (he was looking right at it). Even a couple of players on the next table over saw the ball move.

Finally he agreed to ask the ref if that was a foul. We called him over and my opponent explained what happened on the shot, admitting for the first time that he moved the impeding ball while shooting. The ref said it was not a foul because the ball he moved did not touch the cue ball. ??? I didn't like it but accepted his decision since he was the tournament official. My opponent failed to get out and I did, winning the match.

My question to you is, did the official make the right call?
Click to expand...
Hello AZ'ers. New kid on the block. Now as to the question, I would say it depends on the rule. If you are playing cue ball fouls only, then I would say no foul unless the cue ball came through or in the area of where the ball was. If you are playing foul on all balls, then it is a foul. Which rules were you playing by Jay?
 
jay helfert

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
Tillman345 said:
Hello AZ'ers. New kid on the block. Now as to the question, I would say it depends on the rule. If you are playing cue ball fouls only, then I would say no foul unless the cue ball came through or in the area of where the ball was. If you are playing foul on all balls, then it is a foul. Which rules were you playing by Jay?
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There is a rule that says if you are shooting over a ball and move it while shooting it is a foul. This does not refer to cue ball fouls or any ball fouls. Of course with BCA and WPA rules they change from year to year depending on who they are talking to most recently. They have been quite successful in mucking up most of the rules for the more popular pool games.

Nothing was wrong with the rules for bar table Eight Ball for forty or fifty years but they saw fit to change them anyway. Nothing wrong with the 9-Ball rules either, but when the game changed to Ten Ball (which is basically the same game with one extra ball), they decided to get creative. Dumb, dumber and dumbest is my best description of their new "rules". :nanner:
 
CreeDo

CreeDo

Fargo Rating 597
Silver Member
That should be a simple one Jay but for some reason it never is. In our local leagues and small time tournaments, we always play with cue ball fouls. So you can get away with murder. You can slightly nudge balls with your bridge hand. You can jostle them with your back hand as you stroke forward. Sometimes you can even get away with moving them with the follow through of your stick, which usually is from someone having a wobble at the end of their stroke or they hit the CB awkwardly.

Almost never are these things called fouls, the general rule seems to be "unless it affects the outcome of the shot, it's not a foul".

But what if it affects the outcome of the entire GAME? There's definitely room for exploitation there.

This thread reminds me of when my league teammate recently did a push foul. Nobody on the other team called him on it, and nobody was asked to watch the hit. Yet when I ambled up to the other team and said "did y'all see that blatant foul?" They pretty much all said "yeah! That was a push wasn't it?"

People are terrified of calling a foul that's arguable (even when it shouldn't be) yet if they never call these fouls they get shafted. In the end your best hope is that the two players are honest and call fouls on themselves, so nobody has to be the bad guy.
 
IntoTheRail

IntoTheRail

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
jay helfert said:
The "bad" call is the result of two things - Poorly written rules and a not so knowledgeable person making the call. I've been seeing this stuff for so long it no longer surprises me. There are still only a handful (or two) of good referees in the whole country.

I had the following happen to me at the recent U.S. Bar Table Championships in Reno. The score was hill-hill (4-4) in an Eight Ball match. My opponent was shooting and he had to use the bridge to shoot over one of my balls. The cue ball was a about a quarter of an inch in front of my ball. He hit my ball with his cue while he was shooting, moving it about one inch. I then asked him if that was a foul. He said, "Why?" I said you moved my ball when you shot. He denied ever touching my ball. That did irritate me since there was no way he didn't see the ball move (he was looking right at it). Even a couple of players on the next table over saw the ball move.

Finally he agreed to ask the ref if that was a foul. We called him over and my opponent explained what happened on the shot, admitting for the first time that he moved the impeding ball while shooting. The ref said it was not a foul because the ball he moved did not touch the cue ball. ??? I didn't like it but accepted his decision since he was the tournament official. My opponent failed to get out and I did, winning the match.

My question to you is, did the official make the right call?
Click to expand...

Even if the rules for the match are cue ball fouls only, I would say thats a foul if the ball he touched rolled into the path where the cue ball originally rested.
 
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