Are Systems Really Essential For World Class Play?

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
I can't help but wonder how anyone could think you could play pool (or anything else) at the highest level without a system. Whether we want to realize it or not there is a conscious or unconcious system for all aspects of pocket billiards. That goes for pocketing balls, playing zone position, lining up your eyes correctly relative to the line of the shot, etc.

The main thing with aiming is the way we connect the two balls together BEFORE getting down on the shot. If anyone doesn't think we have a system for that I will tell them they're living in a fantasy world. The thing that intermediate players are missing is there's 2 lines when aiming and one uses the edge of the cue ball and the other uses the center of the cue ball. And to understand this you must stop looking at the balls like they're round....they are, for all intents and purposes FLAT and one dimensional for the purposes of aiming. I go over a lot of this in my 3rd volume of Ultimate Pool Secrets, but after talking to Stan I realized I was doing something else unconsciously that is more of the foundation of his system. This has done wonders for my understanding how it all comes together and has enabled me to "rembember" exactly how I was doing it in my prime. When playing good (gambling) I would expect to miss about one ball an hour (that I was trying to pocket) , and when I was playing great I would not make one ball every 2 hours. When I played Efren in Seattle for 14 hours I missed 6 balls total (that's my top speed). If anyone thinks I didn't use a system to do that that's fine.....but I'd challenge them to shoot a gun or bow without sights, because that's how they're playing pool if they don't know how to line up ABOVE the ball.

I understand why Pros say some of the things they do about him not having an aiming system....however, I also don't think they would say the same things to me in private....everyone has a system, and you also know if you analyze it too much without completely understanding it your game will suffer greatly....at some point it's essential to keep from "thinking" about the unconscious activity too much. However, I for one have sacrificed my level of play quite a bit to figure this stuff out and when I start playing seriously again I'll also try to "not think about my game"....that's why it's virtually impossible to teach at a world class level and play at that level at the same time....CJ Wiley www.cjwiley.com
NEW BLOG: http://forums.azbilliards.com/blog.php?u=64222

US OPEN MATCH AGAINST EARL STICKLAND: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4UVcdfiBSY

CJ'S ULTIMATE POOL SECRETS: www.cjwiley.com

CJ Wiley vs Mike Sigel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJSGHDC1wXA
 
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One Pocket John

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
+1

Specifically this part:

I'll also try to "not think about my game"....that's why it's virtually impossible to teach at a world class level and play at that level at the same time....

John
 

michael4

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Whether we want to realize it or not there is a conscious or unconcious system for all aspects of pocket billiards.
This has done wonders for my understanding how it all comes together and has enabled me to "rembember" exactly how I was doing it in my prime.
I understand why Pros say some of the things they do about him not having an aiming system....
at some point it's essential to keep from "thinking" about the unconscious activity too much.
However, I for one have sacrificed my level of play quite a bit to figure this stuff out
it's virtually impossible to teach at a world class level and play at that level at the same time....CJ Wiley

Not an instructor and not even an expert in pool, but I would offer this point of debate.....to me the phrase "unconcious system" doesnt work, its either ONE or the OTHER. A person may start out using a system, but once you master something you are doing it uncontiously and no longer using a system. (by my definition)
For example in 2nd grade I may have used a system to write my name, now its done uncontiously.

I think this is consistent with why its hard for you (or anyone) to both at the same time, your trying to do two differnt things at the same time.


Just a thought
 

rrick33

Rick
Silver Member
systems

I think that even if a system becomes programmed to the point that it operates on a subconscious level....it is still a system. The brain is still moving through a series of programmed steps to achieve a desired result.

The fact that we no longer recognize the system in use does not negate the fact that a system is at the core of the programed responses.
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
Not an instructor and not even an expert in pool, but I would offer this point of debate.....to me the phrase "unconcious system" doesnt work, its either ONE or the OTHER. A person may start out using a system, but once you master something you are doing it uncontiously and no longer using a system. (by my definition)
For example in 2nd grade I may have used a system to write my name, now its done uncontiously.

I think this is consistent with why its hard for you (or anyone) to both at the same time, your trying to do two differnt things at the same time.


Just a thought

That may be absolutely true when we feel right and things are going well.....and there are times when you have to consciously get back on track....this is often called "going back to the basics"...I've heard about many pro athletes in different sports changing grips, stances, and mental routines (pre-shot) to try to get out of slumps or reach a higher level....one thing that's true with life in general is "nothing stays the same for long"....either we're getting better or worse and if we want to keep improving then we must make changes in our physical, mental and sometimes even spiritual approach....and this usually happens after we hit some type of pinnacle.....or have something else change in our life, sometimes totally unrelated to our sport/game/job/career.

I, for one, practice much more consciously than I compete....there's never been a time when I wasn't working on at least one particular thing...even if that thing was how to go deeper into dead stroke....even this was developed by reading, experimenting, and thinking about it before I could "not think about it".....such is life it seems ....imho

NEW BLOG: http://forums.azbilliards.com/blog.php?u=64222

US OPEN MATCH AGAINST EARL STICKLAND: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4UVcdfiBSY

CJ'S ULTIMATE POOL SECRETS: www.cjwiley.com

CJ Wiley vs Mike Sigel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJSGHDC1wXA
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
I think that even if a system becomes programmed to the point that it operates on a subconscious level....it is still a system. The brain is still moving through a series of programmed steps to achieve a desired result.

The fact that we no longer recognize the system in use does not negate the fact that a system is at the core of the programed responses.

That's a very accurate statement....whether we're aware of it or not we all have a system for solving problems, walking, talking and even socializing.... as you said, "even if we no longer recognize the system, the system is at the core" ... this is somewhat of a universal truth.

NEW BLOG: http://forums.azbilliards.com/blog.php?u=64222

US OPEN MATCH AGAINST EARL STICKLAND: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4UVcdfiBSY

CJ'S ULTIMATE POOL SECRETS: www.cjwiley.com

CJ Wiley vs Mike Sigel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJSGHDC1wXA
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
I'd challenge them to shoot a gun or bow without sights, because that's how they're playing pool if they don't know how to line up ABOVE the ball.

Great stuff, sir, and a very exciting post. I've been teaching high aim for a long time and I'd say right as you are in your photo avatar is a great place to do so. :)

Thanks so much.
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
That's a very accurate statement....whether we're aware of it or not we all have a system for solving problems, walking, talking and even socializing.... as you said, "even if we no longer recognize the system, the system is at the core" ... this is somewhat of a universal truth.

NEW BLOG: http://forums.azbilliards.com/blog.php?u=64222

US OPEN MATCH AGAINST EARL STICKLAND: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4UVcdfiBSY

CJ'S ULTIMATE POOL SECRETS: www.cjwiley.com

CJ Wiley vs Mike Sigel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJSGHDC1wXA
Or up there in your new avatar! :)
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
Or up there in your new avatar! :)

I'm used to FaceBook and may change things more than needed....I'll adjust, and yes I agree with your observations....once you're down on the shot the visual connection will be skewed if not lined up from above.
 

lstevedus

One of the 47%
Silver Member
Me too!

+1

Specifically this part:

I'll also try to "not think about my game"....that's why it's virtually impossible to teach at a world class level and play at that level at the same time....

John

I try to help people with their pool game. After reading this thread, I am no longer going there. I have an open mind when it comes to pool and have been trying hard to improve. Its definitely showing some results. From now on I'm going to say I play but don't teach. You all can have at 'em. I'm sick of hearing all the whining and crying because they can't play as good as they think they should when they don't put in the time or effort to get better. I hope all you instructors are laughing all the way to the bank. Oh..I forgot..they don't want to spend any money on lessons either, so good luck with that. See you guys at the tournaments. I'll be at the Derby in January if anyone wants to play some.
 

One Pocket John

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I try to help people with their pool game. After reading this thread, I am no longer going there. I have an open mind when it comes to pool and have been trying hard to improve. Its definitely showing some results. From now on I'm going to say I play but don't teach. You all can have at 'em. I'm sick of hearing all the whining and crying because they can't play as good as they think they should when they don't put in the time or effort to get better. I hope all you instructors are laughing all the way to the bank. Oh..I forgot..they don't want to spend any money on lessons either, so good luck with that. See you guys at the tournaments. I'll be at the Derby in January if anyone wants to play some.

I hear ya.

My oldest son (44) comes over to the house and says Dad, I'm not consistant when I play, there is a problem somewhere could you help me".
I said sure, I have a table in my man cave, so I scattered some balls on the table and said, lets see what ya got.

Oh my god, as soon as he grabbed the cue and got ready to shoot I put my hand on his grip hand, he was gripping the cue like you would grip a 16# sledge hammer. I got him staightened out on the grip and watched him shoot a few shots, when he would shoot, he shot with his whole arm. I got him straightened out on that and he started sinking some balls. Oh yeah had to straighten out his stance also.

End of lesson. He likes to play 1P as I do, so I loaned him all of my Grady Mathews tapes (yeah tapes) plus loaned him Scott Frost's Power One Pocket DVD. I told him to watch the tapes and DVD to learn.

This has been 4 months ago and he still hasnt taken the time to watch any of them. I asked him if he has been practicing and he says "no" I dont have the time. Jeez.

I read here on AZ a poster had stated that when the student is ready they will seek out instruction. How true that is.

I have been playing for over 50 years, practice everyday and still seek out information to improve my game. I dont think the learning process ever ends. Which is pretty exciting.

Sorry for the long post.

John
 

porper-sig

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Best to focus on stance and alignment primarily. Eberle and Schmidt are great examples of this..IMO.
 

genomachino

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You said a mouthful there Mr Steve.......

I try to help people with their pool game. After reading this thread, I am no longer going there. I have an open mind when it comes to pool and have been trying hard to improve. Its definitely showing some results. From now on I'm going to say I play but don't teach. You all can have at 'em. I'm sick of hearing all the whining and crying because they can't play as good as they think they should when they don't put in the time or effort to get better. I hope all you instructors are laughing all the way to the bank. Oh..I forgot..they don't want to spend any money on lessons either, so good luck with that. See you guys at the tournaments. I'll be at the Derby in January if anyone wants to play some.

I was in Tallahassee last week and watched a young man named clint play Scooter some one pocket for about 4 or 5 days. These guys really went at it.

I had talked to Clint about a Perfect Aim lesson. He was too busy. But was thinking about it.

He was ahead $2000 or so and lost it all back.

I know for a fact and so do you Steve, that if I had showed him how this works, Scooter would never have gotten that money back.

Oh well.

Us pool players have this virus called Know it all Itus. It really gets in the way of us learning something when something really good comes along.

Do you think there is a pill for this?;):rolleyes:
 

lstevedus

One of the 47%
Silver Member
I was in Tallahassee last week and watched a young man named clint play Scooter some one pocket for about 4 or 5 days. These guys really went at it.

I had talked to Clint about a Perfect Aim lesson. He was too busy. But was thinking about it.

He was ahead $2000 or so and lost it all back.

I know for a fact and so do you Steve, that if I had showed him how this works, Scooter would never have gotten that money back.

Oh well.

Us pool players have this virus called Know it all Itus. It really gets in the way of us learning something when something really good comes along.

Do you think there is a pill for this?;):rolleyes:

I am glad there isn't a pill to cure that problem. It makes it easier for me. I use techniques from your Perfect Aim every time I play. Last night in a tournament in Columbus I used something you teach to make a long hard difficult cut shot. Sometimes one shot is the difference between winning and losing. I am finding out that players that are into learning more, win more. I am going to stick to exchanging information with those guys. The ones that want a quick fix need to get one of those pills you are talking about.
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
We ALL need some guidance from time to time

I try to help people with their pool game. After reading this thread, I am no longer going there. I have an open mind when it comes to pool and have been trying hard to improve. Its definitely showing some results. From now on I'm going to say I play but don't teach. You all can have at 'em. I'm sick of hearing all the whining and crying because they can't play as good as they think they should when they don't put in the time or effort to get better. I hope all you instructors are laughing all the way to the bank. Oh..I forgot..they don't want to spend any money on lessons either, so good luck with that. See you guys at the tournaments. I'll be at the Derby in January if anyone wants to play some.

There's no substitute for "time and effort", but it helps to put your time and effort into the right type of practice....that, in my opinion is where we all need some guidance from time to time ;)
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
We ALL need some guidance from time to time

I try to help people with their pool game. After reading this thread, I am no longer going there. I have an open mind when it comes to pool and have been trying hard to improve. Its definitely showing some results. From now on I'm going to say I play but don't teach. You all can have at 'em. I'm sick of hearing all the whining and crying because they can't play as good as they think they should when they don't put in the time or effort to get better. I hope all you instructors are laughing all the way to the bank. Oh..I forgot..they don't want to spend any money on lessons either, so good luck with that. See you guys at the tournaments. I'll be at the Derby in January if anyone wants to play some.

There's no substitute for "time and effort", but it helps to put your time and effort into the right type of practice....that, in my opinion is where we all need some guidance from time to time ;)
 

Scott Lee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
lstevedus...I don't think any instructors are getting rich! LOL We do this as a labor of love, and respect for the sport, than anything else. Unless you're really passionate about pool and teaching, you won't make a very good instructor. Most instructors do it as a part time thing. The full time guys/gals can do okay. I do okay because I travel the whole country, and come to you...but I'm not getting rich!...at least not what I call rich! LOL

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

I hope all you instructors are laughing all the way to the bank.
 

Ratta

Hearing the balls.....
Silver Member
I try to help people with their pool game. After reading this thread, I am no longer going there. I have an open mind when it comes to pool and have been trying hard to improve. Its definitely showing some results. From now on I'm going to say I play but don't teach. You all can have at 'em. I'm sick of hearing all the whining and crying because they can't play as good as they think they should when they don't put in the time or effort to get better. I hope all you instructors are laughing all the way to the bank. Oh..I forgot..they don't want to spend any money on lessons either, so good luck with that. See you guys at the tournaments. I'll be at the Derby in January if anyone wants to play some.

Hiho :)

Geno shown up the real problem- about this "world wide well know virus" - "the i know it all virus" is everywhere :p

2nd what you named: that the far greater amount don t put the necessary time effort to work hard is also a given fact.

And of course many ppl want to get all for free-- in my opinion in pool far more than in any other sport that i know. You ll find a way to live with it-also with the whining. I m nowadays more amused to watch how players act (excuses. exploding, calling bad names, etc. ). I have students where i know they couldn t effort to pay for lessons. The guys where i m sure, that they have the necessary willing, i also teach for free- but for sure not the type of players who are infected with the virus ^^.

Im not instructing for a living- in germany it is almost not doable- just very few are able to do-and finally doing it. A hand full or PERHAPS 2 hands full could live from it- but believe me- not the instructors would be laughing when coming from the bank.....it would be students who would laugh their ass off if they would see how much time is necessary, and how much enthusiasm to perhaps being able to live from working as an instructor.
I m just glad for ppl who are able to make a living from it. To *live your passion* can be satisfying and if so, you are also happy if you have a little less money than others. To be lucky while working is a not often found nowadays.

And the guys i know (instructors, full time or hobby) all have one in common- if they re good...it s their passion.

lg from overseas,
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
Hiho :)

Geno shown up the real problem- about this "world wide well know virus" - "the i know it all virus" is everywhere :p

2nd what you named: that the far greater amount don t put the necessary time effort to work hard is also a given fact.

And of course many ppl want to get all for free-- in my opinion in pool far more than in any other sport that i know. You ll find a way to live with it-also with the whining. I m nowadays more amused to watch how players act (excuses. exploding, calling bad names, etc. ). I have students where i know they couldn t effort to pay for lessons. The guys where i m sure, that they have the necessary willing, i also teach for free- but for sure not the type of players who are infected with the virus ^^.



Im not instructing for a living- in germany it is almost not doable- just very few are able to do-and finally doing it. A hand full or PERHAPS 2 hands full could live from it- but believe me- not the instructors would be laughing when coming from the bank.....it would be students who would laugh their ass off if they would see how much time is necessary, and how much enthusiasm to perhaps being able to live from working as an instructor.
I m just glad for ppl who are able to make a living from it. To *live your passion* can be satisfying and if so, you are also happy if you have a little less money than others. To be lucky while working is a not often found nowadays.

And the guys i know (instructors, full time or hobby) all have one in common- if they re good...it s their passion.

lg from overseas,

I'm fine with anyone making a profit....it's essential, however, for the incentive (which comes from passion) to be a result (of making a difference in someone's game/life), not an incentive to "make a buck", I believe you have that passion...It's exciting for me because the best information has still not been released to the general public....and it must be done (when it's done) in "layers" ;)
 
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