My bad. Localism at it's best here.bgb said:
Put Hohmann in there then.
Best pool player in the world???
- Thread starter ARM9BALLER
- Start date
Put Hohmann in there then.
Aren't there far more international stars now compared to the 80s or 90s. It's hard for anyone to stand out in the crowd. I believe Efren is the best today and backwards, but I also feel his best days are behind him and someone else will prevail. For Americans I like Archer of Deuel, but I think the rest of the world has passed the USA and why wouldn't they. Else where pool is huge and doing well financially especially in Asia where the best players seem to be coming from. Go Johnny!
Like someone already said there is a group of players out there that on any day if they were playing their best they could beat anyone else in the world but that wouldn't make them the best. But, I have to say Efren's got my vote. Not only does he play 9ball as good as anyone, he's a great one pocket player if not the greatest, he's great at 8ball, rotation, and I've only watched one of his straight pool matches where he ran 148, I think, but he was damn good in that match too. His best days might be gone (or going cause in interviews he says his eyes aren't what they used to be) but I think when you take into effect that he is great at all of the pool disciplines I think its hard to argue that he's not the greatest. I haven't watched any matches of him playing 3 cushion or snooker but I bet he could kick some ass playin those too.
The Best
IS THE PLAYER THAT GETS THE CHEESE BECAUSE OF WHO HE IS!! tHEY DON'T EVEN HAVE TO PLAY!!!LOL
I think, "THE BEST",OldHasBeen said:
IS THE PLAYER THAT GETS THE CHEESE BECAUSE OF WHO HE IS!! tHEY DON'T EVEN HAVE TO PLAY!!!LOL
hemicudas said:
THIS is why I said what I said. It is a load of garbage to even think the above. Efren won one single world championships, how many did Mosconi win? Efren won in 1999, in 2000 he lost, in 2001 he lost, in 2002 he lost, in 2003 he lost, in 2004 he lost, in 2005 he did not even make the bloody final 64. Looking at it from an objective standpoint the comparison to Mosconi's record and Reyes' record does not leave a brain surgeon to see which truly dominated their era of pool. Efren was great, but he NEVER dominated the pool scene like Mosconi did, you never saw the field playing for second due to Reyes in the tourney and when Mosconi was in his prime this is exactly how it was. Sigel in the 80's won over 90% of his finals matches, that is getting to the finals and beating the other top pro who is playing great and got to the finals 90% of the time people, Efren never dominated like that. As good as Efren was even in his prime you could never be assured he would win in a match against Archer, Strickland, Sigel, or any of the other top pro's He never dominated the pool world and that is what it takes to be in the same league as Mosconi.
Mosconi would NEVER have gone through the dry spell of world chamionships Efren did, unlike Efren, Mosconi was a phemon and was far above everyone else in skill he was the undisputed king. And for all those that think Efren played his best pool before he came to America I have to say he was not so hot in 1985 when he technically should have been stronger as he would have been closer to his prime. He played his best pool in the early-mid 90's from what I have seen on alot of video's over the years of his play.
I think Efren was/is a phenomenal player, he has simply not been dominant enough to be considered the best ever over other guys who in their prime were alot more favoured to beat the field and won alot more of the major events, most especially the world championships. Efren > Hoppe? I am thinking not, you have to read about the past if you think Efren is the best because you have no clue how much some of the people in the past dominated the sport. And to those that think the players were weaker back then you need to realize in Mosconi's days the money in pool was actually better then it is today and that made people more apt to play. Also the conditions of the tables, the cues they used, and the game they played was by no means a small thing to deal with, and yet still one man dominated the sport for years and years, it was rare he did NOT win the worlds in his prime, Efren you can NEVER say that about and in 50 years when all the people who swoon over Efren look back they wont see anything but Mosconi's titles vs Reyes' titles and that is going to go bad for Efren.
Maybe a little diffrent tourney
I try to think of this question at hand a little diffrent way.
If tourney where the winner of each round was to win 3 out of 5 formats who would win the tourny.
Race to lets say 15 in all games.
10 ball
9 ball
8ball
14.1
1 pocket.
Whoever wins 3 out of those 5 matchups would be the best all around.
If you had to put every dime you had on one player would you pick anyone other than Efren today?
He can be beat. We've all seen it, but it's hard to put your money else where.
A tourny like this won't happen. It's just the way I try to look at it. My fav. player is corey. He's my second choice to win.
I also left out snooker, 3-rail, golf, 7-ball, and some others that a lot play, but the other games I think are what most think of when you hear best in the world.
I try to think of this question at hand a little diffrent way.
If tourney where the winner of each round was to win 3 out of 5 formats who would win the tourny.
Race to lets say 15 in all games.
10 ball
9 ball
8ball
14.1
1 pocket.
Whoever wins 3 out of those 5 matchups would be the best all around.
If you had to put every dime you had on one player would you pick anyone other than Efren today?
He can be beat. We've all seen it, but it's hard to put your money else where.
A tourny like this won't happen. It's just the way I try to look at it. My fav. player is corey. He's my second choice to win.
I also left out snooker, 3-rail, golf, 7-ball, and some others that a lot play, but the other games I think are what most think of when you hear best in the world.
S
sonia
Guest
ARM9BALLER said:
HOHMAN, GERMANY
CantEverWin said:
Why do people look at all these different games? 9-ball is the professional game of today just like Straight Pool was the professional game of Greenleaf's and Mosconi's day. We dont judge Mosconi based on how he played 8-ball or 9-ball, we judge him on the game that mattered, the professional game. Why even discuss 8-ball? In the realm of professional billiards it is at best a sideshow. 1-pocket? A gambling game, other then 1/3rd of the DCC how many meaningful 1-pocket events are there? If we are going to start making these kinds of claims we better get Fast Larry back here and put him into the mix since he can hit more rails then anyone else and has the best trained dog that can nudge balls into a pocket with his nose, do these things matter? Are they relevant in todays pool world? I would say no, nor is 8-ball or 1-pocket as far as competition. If those games got huge and tournaments happened then EVERYONE would practice them and play them but at this time who cares who is the best 8-ball player, no pro's play the bloody game.
9-ball is the only game I see mattering atm because it is the ONLY professional game that actually is played and has fairly regular tournaments. Who was the best 8-ball player in the 1950's? Thats right, noone fucking knows because the game was pointless to master with Straight Pool being the real game with all the money. If 1-pocket and all the other specialty games became huge then Archer and Strickland and Hohmann and Yang and everyone else would play them and would Efren still be the best at them? Who knows, one thing is evident, alot of people on this thread do not think Efren is the best at 9-ball in this era, and that is the only game that the pro's have all really commited to playing and all the other games out there are are specialties that are more of a gimmick.
Efren might be the best pea pool player as well, he could be the best poker pool player, who cares?
Voodoo Daddy
One Pocket 101
ARM9BALLER said:
IMO, Efren Reyes is the best all around player walking the planet. All the pocket games plus 3-C. C'mon you guys, its not because I think it...its because its true.
Celtic, you have a point, even though mosconi was reputed to be great at all games. During an exhibition, he once played Fats one-hole in, which he thought was a "gimmick game", and easily ran eight-and-out several times.
I think the reason Efren gets so much recognition as the greatest player in the world is not because of his tournament record but more so because of his skill as a universal cueist. He appears to have mastered all games and most shots in pool, the jump and break shots being the only exception. He is also not a bad bet at other cue games, including snooker, balk-line games, and 3-cushion, which he has played competitively before and finished highly. He is able to make any stroke shot, kick shot, bank, or otherwise difficult shot, and is able to play position well enough that he can go for games without taking a tough shot.
Mosconi was also a universal cueist; he could play the balk-line games, snooker, and 3c all well. As for Mosconi dominating his field, there were fewer people in the field at the time, and fewer players on a top level then today. Yes mosconi dominated his era, but he never had to contend with 128-player fields. Also, 9-ball is less conducive to domination, as there are too many factors, including luck, the format of the tourney, and the break shot, which could favor a weaker player.
I don't think its possible to compare the players' skills heads-up; I honestly don't know whether Mosconi would beat efren, or archer or strickland or hohmann or immonen, for that matter, maybe he could. I do believe that the form and mechanics of the game have evolved, and the stances and strokes used by today's players afford several advantages over the styles of earlier players, but we can never know who was truly the best of all time.
I think the reason Efren gets so much recognition as the greatest player in the world is not because of his tournament record but more so because of his skill as a universal cueist. He appears to have mastered all games and most shots in pool, the jump and break shots being the only exception. He is also not a bad bet at other cue games, including snooker, balk-line games, and 3-cushion, which he has played competitively before and finished highly. He is able to make any stroke shot, kick shot, bank, or otherwise difficult shot, and is able to play position well enough that he can go for games without taking a tough shot.
Mosconi was also a universal cueist; he could play the balk-line games, snooker, and 3c all well. As for Mosconi dominating his field, there were fewer people in the field at the time, and fewer players on a top level then today. Yes mosconi dominated his era, but he never had to contend with 128-player fields. Also, 9-ball is less conducive to domination, as there are too many factors, including luck, the format of the tourney, and the break shot, which could favor a weaker player.
I don't think its possible to compare the players' skills heads-up; I honestly don't know whether Mosconi would beat efren, or archer or strickland or hohmann or immonen, for that matter, maybe he could. I do believe that the form and mechanics of the game have evolved, and the stances and strokes used by today's players afford several advantages over the styles of earlier players, but we can never know who was truly the best of all time.
Man you guys think just because Efren was struggling and he got knocked out early that his time is over? I'm willing to bet that all of you that think Efren is not the best player in the world have NEVER seen him play when he is in stroke. You have all seen his average game a few times, which by the way is still world class, but when he reaches that high gear, he plays at a level that nobody can compete with. Yes all the pros run out all the time when they are in that high gear, but Efren runs out racks that nobody can, no matter how well they are playing. Efren safes, kicks, and controls the cueball better than anyone on the planet, and his shotmaking is about on par with Earl Strickland. So yes, he is the greatest player to ever pick up a cue.
LastTwo said:
Everything that LastTwo said.
And as far as Efren vs. Strickland, the Color of Money match should be the deciding factor in that. While Efren only won by like 3 games or something, he still WON. That race should be taken heavily into consideration instead of races to 7 or 11 that he's lost to Strickland.
Ok, my .02 worth--
I think Mike Sigel is the greatest living player. I think Efren is maybe the most dominant player playing today. And no disrespect to either of them, but Willie Mosconi completely dominated pool like no other player ever will again. And as far as the competition- he beat guys like Ralph Greenleaf, Jimmy Caras, Luther Lassiter, Irving Crane, Jimmy Moore, Babe Cranfield, and on and on. Legends. As talented as many of the young tour players are today, will people speak of them as legendary players in 50 years?
And one other thing. Look at all the exhibitions Mosconi played. He played all over the country. All takers. On all types of tables. And no one could beat him. If fact, it was considered unusual if he didn't run at least 100 balls every time he chalked up. To me, the only player you could even make an argument for being better than Mosconi is Ralph Greenleaf.
I think Mike Sigel is the greatest living player. I think Efren is maybe the most dominant player playing today. And no disrespect to either of them, but Willie Mosconi completely dominated pool like no other player ever will again. And as far as the competition- he beat guys like Ralph Greenleaf, Jimmy Caras, Luther Lassiter, Irving Crane, Jimmy Moore, Babe Cranfield, and on and on. Legends. As talented as many of the young tour players are today, will people speak of them as legendary players in 50 years?
And one other thing. Look at all the exhibitions Mosconi played. He played all over the country. All takers. On all types of tables. And no one could beat him. If fact, it was considered unusual if he didn't run at least 100 balls every time he chalked up. To me, the only player you could even make an argument for being better than Mosconi is Ralph Greenleaf.
S
sonia
Guest
mosconi vs greenleaf
Mosconi and Greenleaf went on a world wide tour that lasted one year. It was financed by Brunswick. Greenleaf cleaned his clock. Years later, Brunswick sent the two of them on another world tour for one year. Greenleaf cleaned his clock. Mosconi never beat Greenleaf. Mosconi played straight pool. absolutely nothing else, period. Mosconi was barred for life, when, in his last straight pool tournament, in Los Angeles he punched out a referee. Of course Mosconi had no opposition when he gave exhibitions, HE HAD NO OPPONENT HE PLAYED ALONE.
Sonia
JLW said:
Mosconi and Greenleaf went on a world wide tour that lasted one year. It was financed by Brunswick. Greenleaf cleaned his clock. Years later, Brunswick sent the two of them on another world tour for one year. Greenleaf cleaned his clock. Mosconi never beat Greenleaf. Mosconi played straight pool. absolutely nothing else, period. Mosconi was barred for life, when, in his last straight pool tournament, in Los Angeles he punched out a referee. Of course Mosconi had no opposition when he gave exhibitions, HE HAD NO OPPONENT HE PLAYED ALONE.
Sonia
S
sonia
Guest
henho said:
MR HEN HO, What evidence do you have that the stances and strokes of the past and present are any different? What form and mechanics have evolved to the present? What stances and strokes used by today's players offer several advantages over the styles of earlier players? Tell me the particular stance, form, mechanics, stroke, of the past and present players. And lastly, tell me exactly how the players from the past, and the present , aim all their shots. What method did they use, MR HENHO. Unless you were there, you have no idea what you are alking about.
Sonia
henho said:
sonia actually asked you pretty well i thought.......
how are you "poolplayers" so sensitive???? do you guys ever get into woofing over making a game???
jeez, you can't take a little needle online, i'd hate to see you people in person.
VAP
vapoolplayer, I am not a poolplayer, I enjoy pool and play for fun but would not consider myself a player. I also have zero respect for the character type that is often admired in pool circles as being hardy, road-worn, and tough. I am sure you know the type, their deliberate, even artificially gruff mannerism is considered cute or admirable. I consider it childish ignorance and generally don't take it seriously, hence my harsh response to mr. sonia. Sure I feel he/she/it makes a valid point and a thread on differences between old vs new players and whether fundamentals have evolved would be interesting (ill let someone else start it). However, if he/she/it expects the thread to have the tone of a pissing war I'll sit it out. There are more intelligent and less confrontational ways to pose the question, and I don't give a crap about how cute others find "woofing" or needling.
I am not sure if I want to place Schimdt on top of the straight pool world but to look at Hohmans and Engerts high runs and think they are better is
not fair.
JS has ran 400. Thats plenty high for me.
IMO in straight pool it comes down to the most consisitent of a period of time
not one long run.
Alex beat JS but damn Alex is a top player. Where are Hohman and Engert and others. I dont think either Alex or John are hiding or running away.
For an all around player I still place Efren as the top. I would have to take
a wager on Archer as well. He is a great player and given practice could win
an event at any time. His "edge or killer instinct" might be gone however.
For those that have never seen Gallego play you are missing out on a top player. I have watched him and Andam both play flawless at times.
Its hard to say who is the best but it would be nice if suddenly there would be a tour annoucement for next year for 10 million dollar events. I believe
we would see some killer instinct come out in a few players.
not fair.
JS has ran 400. Thats plenty high for me.
IMO in straight pool it comes down to the most consisitent of a period of time
not one long run.
Alex beat JS but damn Alex is a top player. Where are Hohman and Engert and others. I dont think either Alex or John are hiding or running away.
For an all around player I still place Efren as the top. I would have to take
a wager on Archer as well. He is a great player and given practice could win
an event at any time. His "edge or killer instinct" might be gone however.
For those that have never seen Gallego play you are missing out on a top player. I have watched him and Andam both play flawless at times.
Its hard to say who is the best but it would be nice if suddenly there would be a tour annoucement for next year for 10 million dollar events. I believe
we would see some killer instinct come out in a few players.
Celtic, Willie Mosconi didn't have as much competition as Efren did/does. There are hundreds of players now who are world beaters, and thousands upon thousands who can play world class pool on a good day. In Mosconi's time there were just a handful of tough players, he didn't have to go thru a field of 100+ players to win a tournament, not even close to that amount.