Best pool player in the world???

[Celtic]

Celtic, Willie Mosconi didn't have as much competition as Efren did/does. There are hundreds of players now who are world beaters, and thousands upon thousands who can play world class pool on a good day. In Mosconi's time there were just a handful of tough players, he didn't have to go thru a field of 100+ players to win a tournament, not even close to that amount.

As time goes on people fade from view but for the few top champion level players. Mosconi was dominating the field 50 years ago, it is not surprising that few remember all the top players from back then. We know Crane, we have heard of Ponzi, we have maybe heard of one or two more, but most great players of that era are simply forgotten. That does not mean they did not exist.

In 50 years how strong will people think our generation is/was in pool? Will they list off the dozens of names of players from 50 years ago like Owen and Yang and Archer and Strickland and the countless other top players? I doubt it, most will be forgotten. Strickland will become the Lassiter of the future, a player that legends are told about but that knowone really knows how good he really was. Video will help these players of todays era be compared, but what about Ponzi, how are we to judge how good he was when almost no footage of him exists? Even Mosconi has very little footage out there in existance.

I dont believe our pool scene is that much stronger. The money was good back in the days of Mosconi and I am sure there were a ton of great players. Look at some of the old legends that are in their 70's now that people talk about, or those that died 10 or 20 years ago, those players came from somewhere, they were around and have been lucky that history has remembered them if only as incorporeal legends with no real substance. We dont know how many great players there were in the past, little got recorded of the game in those days, Our own era will lucky to have 10 people remembered in 50 years and debated about in threads started by our grandkids. Will they remember Yang as a legend? Not unless he wins some stuff, we herald him because he is present and we see him, in 50 years history will judge how good he was by either remembering him or letting his memory fade due to not getting him name on the trophies. Few people in 50 years will know who Gabe Owen is/was, same for Rodney Morris, same for Shawn Putnam, that is just the way it works, only the best and most successful get remembered 50 years down the road, and 100 years later even fewer, that is why we think the scene back then was weaker, most of the players are long since faded from memory.

 

[Williebetmore]

Mosconi and Greenleaf went on a world wide tour that lasted one year. It was financed by Brunswick. Greenleaf cleaned his clock. Years later, Brunswick sent the two of them on another world tour for one year. Greenleaf cleaned his clock. Mosconi never beat Greenleaf. Mosconi played straight pool. absolutely nothing else, period. Mosconi was barred for life, when, in his last straight pool tournament, in Los Angeles he punched out a referee. Of course Mosconi had no opposition when he gave exhibitions, HE HAD NO OPPONENT HE PLAYED ALONE.

Sonia

Sonia,
Where the heck did you get these ideas? Your post is filled with information that is just WRONG. Mosconi and Greenleaf played 2 series of challenge matches - both lasting several months - both visiting many cities - both to at least 3,000 balls. The details are in Mosconi's autobiography and are substantiated to my satisfaction by pool historians.

In the first exhibition, Greenleaf did win - Mosconi was very young, nowhere near his peak, and speaks with great admiration of Greenleaf's prowess, and credits Ralph with bringing his (Willie's) game up to its eventual level. In the second series, Willie STOMPED Ralph. By that time Ralph was well past his prime, drinking excessively - Willie was nearing his prime. Willie was always sad that they never matched up when they were both in their prime - and even suggests that Ralph (at his best) may have been as good as Willie (and he didn't think any of his other contemporaries were even close to he or Ralph). Other than that loss to Greenleaf when Willie was very young and inexperienced, he NEVER lost a match to at least 1000 balls. His only other losses were in short race, round robin type competitions (where it was possible to run into a player on a roll who might not let you shoot).

Your "barred-for-life" story, I have never heard before, though I have heard many stories of irascible behavior.

 

[Mr. J]

Efren is the Very Best!

The is a very easy conclusion to come to. This game of pool and billiards is first and foremost about putting the ball in the pocket. Then there is the defence and recovery of defence played upon you. The person who plays the most perfect game is the best player. He is the one who misses less, playes the best safeties, kicks and always hits his ball, and always plays perfect position. THE BEST PLAYER IN THE WORLD IS THE PERSON WHO MAKES THE LEAST AMOUNT OF ERRORS. The person who makes the least amout of errors is usually the one who wins the tournament or wins the cash. If you want to know who is the best between player A and B, just ask yourself this simple question. "Which person is going to miss the most balls out of 100 attempted." That will tell you who is the best. The one who misses more will give more opportunities and therefore is the weakest player. Very simple and very accurate. I gurantee it!

Efren has proven himself long ago and also very recently that he is the best. I believe that he is the 3 consecutive years in the row the All Around Champ at the Derby and he is world class in 8 ball, carom billiards, 9-ball, straight pool, 3-cushion billiards, the Best game of all One Pocket, and just about any other dicipline that he attempts on the green felt. Efren has won so many times because he makes the least amout of errors and furthermore his attitude is unmatched and on completely another level. We could talk about that one for a long time...


Efren in the Very Best...

Mr. J.

 

[the kirkwood ki]

Lassiter

I say Luther Lassiter. Mosconi was the best straight pool player.HE ONLY PLAYED STRAIGHT POOL!!!! How can you even compare him to Lassiter? He was the best nine ball player, but could also play the other games, Mosconi couldn't. Lassiter won 18 world titles(I don't think even Sigel has done that) in the sixties, playing all the games. Mosconi's claim of 15 world titles doesn't hold up because a few of those years they didn't even have a world championship match, so he just carried it over to include those years because he was the last one to win it, so about four or five of his "titles" don't even count. Lassiter played throught the thirties, forties, dominating the road players and hustlers from everwhere and was king in the sixties. Never had a job, live his entire life playing pool. Luther Lassiter was the best ever IMHO.

 

[JLW]

Sonia,
Where the heck did you get these ideas? Your post is filled with information that is just WRONG. Mosconi and Greenleaf played 2 series of challenge matches - both lasting several months - both visiting many cities - both to at least 3,000 balls. The details are in Mosconi's autobiography and are substantiated to my satisfaction by pool historians.

In the first exhibition, Greenleaf did win - Mosconi was very young, nowhere near his peak, and speaks with great admiration of Greenleaf's prowess, and credits Ralph with bringing his (Willie's) game up to its eventual level. In the second series, Willie STOMPED Ralph. By that time Ralph was well past his prime, drinking excessively - Willie was nearing his prime. Willie was always sad that they never matched up when they were both in their prime - and even suggests that Ralph (at his best) may have been as good as Willie (and he didn't think any of his other contemporaries were even close to he or Ralph). Other than that loss to Greenleaf when Willie was very young and inexperienced, he NEVER lost a match to at least 1000 balls. His only other losses were in short race, round robin type competitions (where it was possible to run into a player on a roll who might not let you shoot).

Your "barred-for-life" story, I have never heard before, though I have heard many stories of irascible behavior.

Thank you for saving me the trouble. I'm completely open to debating who's the best, but let's at least be honest about the facts.

 

[JLW]

I say Luther Lassiter. Mosconi was the best straight pool player.HE ONLY PLAYED STRAIGHT POOL!!!! How can you even compare him to Lassiter? He was the best nine ball player, but could also play the other games, Mosconi couldn't. Lassiter won 18 world titles(I don't think even Sigel has done that) in the sixties, playing all the games. Mosconi's claim of 15 world titles doesn't hold up because a few of those years they didn't even have a world championship match, so he just carried it over to include those years because he was the last one to win it, so about four or five of his "titles" don't even count. Lassiter played throught the thirties, forties, dominating the road players and hustlers from everwhere and was king in the sixties. Never had a job, live his entire life playing pool. Luther Lassiter was the best ever IMHO.

I'm a big Luther Lassiter fan. And Luther Lassiter and Earl Strickland would definitely get my vote for being the two best 9 ball players ever. But to say that Willie only played straight pool. Have you ever played straight pool? Damn. That's a hard game to play well. Willie dedicated his time to primarily playing straight pool because it was the championship game. Willie had disdain for 9 ball because of the luck element. Therefore, he didn't think it was as true a test of pool playing ability. But that's a whole other debate.

 

[Williebetmore]

I say Luther Lassiter. Mosconi was the best straight pool player.HE ONLY PLAYED STRAIGHT POOL!!!! How can you even compare him to Lassiter? He was the best nine ball player, but could also play the other games, Mosconi couldn't. .

KK,
I certainly agree Luther is one of the greats, but I would disagree with your assessment of Willie's game. It is not that he couldn't play 9-ball, he just didn't choose to. It is well documented in his book (and by my previous posts on the subject, from my father's degenerate pool buddies in KC who all hung out with Willie when he lived there) that Willie was a MONSTER at any game with a cue and balls. He finished second to Willie Hoppe in a national 3-cushion tournament. He ran 7 racks in a row the first time any of those guys saw him play 9-ball (described in his autobiography).

Willie was NOT a "typical" straight pool player of the day - he was a super aggressive, offensive machine, playing balls to the wall almost all of the time. His typical game of 14.1 included numerous shots of tremendous difficulty (NOT because of overall poor position play, but because of a tremendous dislike for wimping out and shooting a safety - he always preferred an extremely difficult shot to an easy safety). He once won a match in the world championship with a called 5-rail kick shot (with the object ball a full diamond away from the pocket).

Many of the years you are describing, Willie played MULTIPLE championship matches. The world champion at that time (like boxing) could accept challenges for the title. If I ever get the time I can look up the exact number of championship tournaments and matches he had, but I'll bet it is around 30.

For the posters who think there was not as much competition then, I would also just note that there were somewhere close to 10 times as many pool halls in the U.S. in those days, surely a few people played in them. A person could make a living at pool in those days, surely those guys could play.

As I've said many times, the degenerate pool players who used to hang around in KC have seen them all - the only players they ever saw even close to Willie were Mike Sigel and Steve Mizerak (these guys all died in the late 80's, and never saw the current batch of players). Remember also that Willie had a significant stroke (cerebrovascular accident) in the early to mid-1950's while still at the peak of his powers, and was nowhere close to his peak after that (for poster's that saw him after that time period)

 

[the kirkwood ki]

I'm a big Luther Lassiter fan. And Luther Lassiter and Earl Strickland would definitely get my vote for being the two best 9 ball players ever. But to say that Willie only played straight pool. Have you ever played straight pool? Damn. That's a hard game to play well. Willie dedicated his time to primarily playing straight pool because it was the championship game. Willie had disdain for 9 ball because of the luck element. Therefore, he didn't think it was as true a test of pool playing ability. But that's a whole other debate.

I think you misunderstand. That's not what I meant at all. Yes I've played straight pool. I wasn't knocking Willie's game at all! He was the king. I'm just saying he didn't dominate all games, which in my opinion is what would determine who the best player is. Someone who plays all the games well, not just one. Not knocking Willie at all. He is my second favorite of all time.But for all time,all games I'm sticking with Wimpy.

 

[Jack Madden]

I say Luther Lassiter. Mosconi was the best straight pool player.HE ONLY PLAYED STRAIGHT POOL!!!! How can you even compare him to Lassiter? He was the best nine ball player, but could also play the other games, Mosconi couldn't. Lassiter won 18 world titles(I don't think even Sigel has done that) in the sixties, playing all the games. Mosconi's claim of 15 world titles doesn't hold up because a few of those years they didn't even have a world championship match, so he just carried it over to include those years because he was the last one to win it, so about four or five of his "titles" don't even count. Lassiter played throught the thirties, forties, dominating the road players and hustlers from everwhere and was king in the sixties. Never had a job, live his entire life playing pool. Luther Lassiter was the best ever IMHO.

He was the best all around for longer than some of our current "best" have been alive. For this reason he should be considered the best - he beat the "best" all his life.
Jack
www.johnmaddencues.com

 

[LastTwo]

Just remember that Efren has no break in 9 ball. Breaks like a girl. Other than that, he is the best right now but is currently fading fast.

You are very wrong. Efren's break is just fine.

 

[wahcheck]

The best today or the best of all time?

What is "best" needs to be defined before you can say.......So...What is "best"....

I always hear high runs thrown in as a determining factor...However....I can't agree with that 100% ....Even though its absolutly incredible that someone runs 425, 450, 475, 500+ was it because they had more skill than a player that can only run 300?....I don't think I have ever watched anyone run over 100 without ever being in position where they were saved only by a dead ball that they had not noticed in the first place...(that means they were not playing for it...they were just versed enough to notice it)...Similar would be Earls 11 racks for the win in 9-ball... Since no one els has done that in competition..(that I know of) would that make him the best????

The other thing is the "back in the day" type stuff....Everyone's past performances seem to get better with age....I am not saying that some people did not accomplish some of the things they have done.... but I really think things seem to get exaggerated over time...especially when there is no "proof" like video to back it up....

Just like the "pockets are buckets now" and were all tighter and on 10 footers back in the day.... I have spoken with a few top players "back in the day" that have been all over and the comment was "I never saw any of those so called tight pockets"

I think the "best" is a group of people....not just one person.... that play pretty much as perfect as you can play without "luck" of some kind being part of the equation....

I agree with you....what defines the "BEST"? Many in this thread are talking about Lassiter, Mosconi, and others in the past....Is that what the original question asked? I took it to mean who IS the best in the world today.....Anyway, I don't think there is any one player today you could say is the BEST in the world...because no one player is dominating the others....I guess though Efren would come the closest although he seems to be losing matches more than ever before....but maybe he's just gotten "fat", and just isn't that hungry anymore....As some have said, good pool starts with attitude...

 

[LastTwo]

All the best players in the world regard Efren as the best player ever. Even those who were around when Mosconi was around still say Efren is the best ever. You can't argue with that.

 

[Williebetmore]

Even those who were around when Mosconi was around still say Efren is the best ever.

Last Two,
I'm not sure you are wrong, but WHO THE HECK SAW THEM BOTH in their prime. You would have had to watch Mosconi from 1935 -1950, then watch Efren from 1985-2005. If you were 20 when you started, you'd be 90 years old now - how many 90 year old railbirds are there out there that can still remember their own name??? Not arguing, just wondering.

In your defense, the old guys I knew thought Mike Sigel was probably pretty close to Willie; so certainly Efren is at least in the ball park if not ahead.

 

[JLW]

I think you misunderstand. That's not what I meant at all. Yes I've played straight pool. I wasn't knocking Willie's game at all! He was the king. I'm just saying he didn't dominate all games, which in my opinion is what would determine who the best player is. Someone who plays all the games well, not just one. Not knocking Willie at all. He is my second favorite of all time.But for all time,all games I'm sticking with Wimpy.

I will agree that Luther was awesome. Wish I could find some video of him in his prime.

 

[JLW]

Willie was NOT a "typical" straight pool player of the day - he was a super aggressive, offensive machine, playing balls to the wall almost all of the time. His typical game of 14.1 included numerous shots of tremendous difficulty (NOT because of overall poor position play, but because of a tremendous dislike for wimping out and shooting a safety - he always preferred an extremely difficult shot to an easy safety). He once won a match in the world championship with a called 5-rail kick shot (with the object ball a full diamond away from the pocket).

You see glimpses of that in his Accu-Stats match with Jimmy Caras. He was in poor health, and played pretty poorly most of the match, but he did string together some pretty impressive combinations. Damn. Why is it so hard to find video of these guys when they were young?!

 

[Jimmy M.]

MR HEN HO, What evidence do you have that the stances and strokes of the past and present are any different? What form and mechanics have evolved to the present? What stances and strokes used by today's players offer several advantages over the styles of earlier players? Tell me the particular stance, form, mechanics, stroke, of the past and present players. And lastly, tell me exactly how the players from the past, and the present , aim all their shots. What method did they use, MR HENHO. Unless you were there, you have no idea what you are alking about.

Sonia

What does the Gender Genie think of this post?

Female Score: 0
Male Score: 153

The Gender Genie thinks the author of this passage is: male!

Okay, so maybe I'm not offering any Earth shattering news here, but I thought it was amusing.

 

[LastTwo]

Last Two,
I'm not sure you are wrong, but WHO THE HECK SAW THEM BOTH in their prime. You would have had to watch Mosconi from 1935 -1950, then watch Efren from 1985-2005. If you were 20 when you started, you'd be 90 years old now - how many 90 year old railbirds are there out there that can still remember their own name??? Not arguing, just wondering.

In your defense, the old guys I knew thought Mike Sigel was probably pretty close to Willie; so certainly Efren is at least in the ball park if not ahead.

I know two different old men who say so. Aside from them, 95% of the entire pool playing population thinks Efren is the greatest ever.

 

[Renegade]

I'm just not sure but in those world championships of yore was the field composed of a truly international cast? did the best from all over the world compete as well?

 

[Tommy-D]

> Back in those days,the World tournament was usually a double round-robin or better,with maybe 16-32 players,and took several months to complete with 125 point games. In ONE tournament,Mosconi ran 125 and out 17 times. You could challege the eventual champion to a 3000 point match,played over several days and in several different cities. Willie won or defended HIS World title 19 consecutive times from 1941-1956,and I think he won a title in 1967,several years after his stroke. Back in those days,no one ever showed up from a different country and beat everyone like Efren did in 1985,or Jose Parica had done several years earlier,the best players in the world were clearly American. Every one in the World tournament back then was a stone cold champion,all very capable of running 2-300 balls from practically anywhere. Willie also had a 13 rack unfinished run playing 9-ball,after some guy walked up to him and Andrew Ponzi woofing about a game while they were eating,Willie tried repeatedly to get Andrew up to play,but Willie stepped up and beat his brains out,winning quite a bit before the non-participatory players backer pulled up. Even with these imposing stats,I still honestly feel Sigel is the man. Willie dominated his era with absolute authority,Sigel was even more dominant in his,despite the different equipment and even the primary game. Ask yourself this question,which accomplishment would YOU rather have on your resume,15 documented World Championships,and few others,or 103 major titles including 7 World titles,and the distinction of being the winningest player EVER? I would even pick Sigel over Efren to this day if they played an all-around consisting of 9-ball,race to 50,14.1 to 300 points,and a race to 11 one-pocket. As far as a pure 9-baller,I'd have to take Sigel and Buddy Hall,along with a calm and focused Earl Strickland. Sigel and Buddy played FAR better position,BUT in his prime,Earl's break,shotmaking,and his intensity made him the most imposing offensive threat the game has probably ever seen. These are ALL based on tournament pool alone,for the cash no one with any sense can dispute that Buddy was untouchable. Tommy D.

 

[Matt_24]

I just wanted to know who is the best pool player in the world? If there is already a thread similar to this one, I would like to know what the outcome was. If not please reply. Give me your honest and unbiased opinion. Celtic seems to think that Earl or Sigel should have top honors over Efren. I know you are gonna say that I am playing favorites just cause I'm filipino, but I just so happen to think that Efren is the best pool player in the world.

My votes are as follows:

Best "all-around" tournament player ever: Mike Sigel
Best "all-around" player ever (tournament/gambling): Efren Reyes (followed closely by Nick Varner)
Best 9 ball player ever: Johnny Archer (I honestly think if his game is at the top he's the favorite in any match)
Best One Pocket ever: Efren Reyes (followed by Ronnie Allen in his hey day)
Best straight pool: Ralph Greenleaf followed by Mosconi
Best bank pool player ever: Eddie Taylor (The Knoxville Bear) - it is kind of funny when even Buggs says, "I'm the best bank pool player ever, except for the BEAR."
Best Bar Box player ever: Keith McCready (Earthquake)