FargoRate vs ABCD

MattPoland

MattPoland

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In my state our most prominent tournament promoter released their full ABCD rating list for their events. I of course downloaded the PDF immediately, converted it to a spreadsheet, wrote an algorithm to pull FargoRates on every entry, removed everyone with less than 200 games, removed all obvious mismatches based off location, and removed all outliers.

So now I have data on how our ratings in Michigan align to FargoRate. Note that most players don’t have an established rating because FR is still new here. But enough did to do analysis. Here’s the average FR for each ABCD rating in Michigan.

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MattPoland

MattPoland

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BeiberLvr said:
746 seems kind of low for a pro.
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Their tournaments are traditionally amateur only. So they're not trying to keep tabs on people like SVB. They only had 3 people labeled PRO. So I'm guessing these are people that played in their tournaments before going PRO...or are low level PRO players not extremely well known that have showed up before and tried to steal.
 
B

BasementDweller

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When it comes to amateur tourneys, 750 is as good as pro. I have no issue with them being labeled as such since you're basically talking about less than 5 guys in all of Michigan.

Nice work Matt. I've looked at that list too. I'm surprised how low the average 'A' rating is.
 
MattPoland

MattPoland

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BasementDweller said:
When it comes to amateur tourneys, 750 is as good as pro. I have no issue with them being labeled as such since you're basically talking about less than 5 guys in all of Michigan.



Nice work Matt. I've looked at that list too. I'm surprised how low the average 'A' rating is.
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I was surprised too. But then I double checked most of the players I thought were A, and they were actually AA.

The thing that’s interesting is the distribution and overlap from FargoRatings. You can tell the field is mostly consistent except for a handful of people on either end. But that’s to be expected. It’s why ABCD is different. It’s a bit subjective. And it tends to lag. People don’t usually leave a bracket until they’ve started dominating it.

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C

Cron

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Is ABCD open, as in is all the math opened source for review and tabulation?

I don't see a problem with a system that is not currently, but if billiards ever became popular again, a closed rating system (I believe Fargo is an example) would very likely not survive. If ABCD allows anyone to work the math, it might have more interest from people than you may believe, especially for "fantasy leagues' (which obviously you can't have with closed systems).
 
MattPoland

MattPoland

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Cron said:
Is ABCD open, as in is all the math opened source for review and tabulation?

I don't see a problem with a system that is not currently, but if billiards ever became popular again, a closed rating system (I believe Fargo is an example) would very likely not survive. If ABCD allows anyone to work the math, it might have more interest from people than you may believe, especially for "fantasy leagues' (which obviously you can't have with closed systems).
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ABCD is just the traditional system that's been in place all over the country where tournament directors manage and maintain their own private list of what every player is rated. There's no math at all. It's purely subjective ratings. When the TD doesn't know a player, they call one or two people they know and trust from that area and get their assessment of that player. "Yeah, he plays even with all the other Bs around here."
 
C

Cron

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MattPoland said:
ABCD is just the traditional system that's been in place all over the country where tournament directors manage and maintain their own private list of what every player is rated. There's no math at all. It's purely subjective ratings. When the TD doesn't know a player, they call one or two people they know and trust from that area and get their assessment of that player. "Yeah, he plays even with all the other Bs around here."
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That's even worse than a closed system as that is open to abuse from many points. There really is nothing grossly wrong with using the Accu-Stats TPA. (# of Balls Made) / (# of Balls Made + # of Errors). At least that way no assumptions or identity is factored in. I for one would rather see a open system that even includes wingspan, as boxing, boating, football, etc.. aren't the only places that matters. But even with that said, the only thing that matters is that final percentage result.

https://billiards.colostate.edu/faq/rating/Accu-Stats-TPA/
 
skip100

skip100

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Cron said:
That's even worse than a closed system as that is open to abuse from many points. There really is nothing grossly wrong with using the Accu-Stats TPA. (# of Balls Made) / (# of Balls Made + # of Errors). At least that way no assumptions or identity is factored in. I for one would rather see a open system that even includes wingspan, as boxing, boating, football, etc.. aren't the only places that matters. But even with that said, the only thing that matters is that final percentage result.

https://billiards.colostate.edu/faq/rating/Accu-Stats-TPA/
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Accu-Stats TPA would be nice but good luck collecting that information for thousands of games played by hundreds of players.

It's hard enough getting accurate information about wins and losses and matching the results to a clean, unified list of players. Collecting data about balls and errors made is impossible at scale.
 
MattPoland

MattPoland

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One of the main things about a PRO vs. Amateur is whether they currently have / always had a day job.

For example, Jeremy Seaman is AAA (not Pro) in our state and he's #15 in the USA.
 
iusedtoberich

iusedtoberich

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MattPoland said:
One of the main things about a PRO vs. Amateur is whether they currently have / always had a day job.

For example, Jeremy Seaman is AAA (not Pro) in our state and he's #15 in the USA.
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I think in pool specifically, pro vs amateur with respect to having a dayjob is irrelevant. Because there is very little money to be made, many "pro's" have actual day jobs.
 
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Cron

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skip100 said:
Accu-Stats TPA would be nice but good luck collecting that information for thousands of games played by hundreds of players.

It's hard enough getting accurate information about wins and losses and matching the results to a clean, unified list of players. Collecting data about balls and errors made is impossible at scale.
Click to expand...

True, nobody wants to be a score keeper (rightfully).
 
MattPoland

MattPoland

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iusedtoberich said:
I think in pool specifically, pro vs amateur with respect to having a dayjob is irrelevant. Because there is very little money to be made, many "pro's" have actual day jobs.
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It's funny because I'm not 100% certain what "Pro" means as a designation for our tournament director. Most that he has listed are in the same range as his other AAA players. I assume he's not looking to have SVB or Sky snap off his event but many other high speed players can play provided they give up the right number of games on the wire. It's definitely a more challenging issue to address nationwide with something like APA championships vs. a popular regional tournament.
 
iusedtoberich

iusedtoberich

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MattPoland said:
It's funny because I'm not 100% certain what "Pro" means as a designation for our tournament director. Most that he has listed are in the same range as his other AAA players. I assume he's not looking to have SVB or Sky snap off his event but many other high speed players can play provided they give up the right number of games on the wire. It's definitely a more challenging issue to address nationwide with something like APA championships vs. a popular regional tournament.
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Yeah, the tournament directors can do anything. In my area (Philly), our two top players the past decade have been Eddie Abraham, and Adam Keiler, both very well known regionally on NE areas of the country, and maybe known by some nationally. Eddie is I believe about 725, and Adam about 740 (I haven't checked their ratings in a while). By "gambling" terms, we call these two "Open" players. The local tourney director sometimes lists them as A, and reserves Pro for the "touring" pros like Archer. I think he only does this so the local top players won't pay a higher entry fee. Eddie has cashed multiple times in the US Open, and won tons of regional events over the years. It would take a strong road player to beat him, or an actual "touring pro" that we all watch on YouTube.
 
hang-the-9

hang-the-9

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BeiberLvr said:
746 seems kind of low for a pro.
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That is what I would consider a pro level player, it's at least an Open player. Not someone that would win a lot of big tournaments but someone that speed can finish top 16 at the US Open.
 
hang-the-9

hang-the-9

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MattPoland said:
In my state our most prominent tournament promoter released their full ABCD rating list for their events. I of course downloaded the PDF immediately, converted it to a spreadsheet, wrote an algorithm to pull FargoRates on every entry, removed everyone with less than 200 games, removed all obvious mismatches based off location, and removed all outliers.

So now I have data on how our ratings in Michigan align to FargoRate. Note that most players don’t have an established rating because FR is still new here. But enough did to do analysis. Here’s the average FR for each ABCD rating in Michigan.

ff1054f895f6f23af8e1e6bc97ab3921.jpg



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Click to expand...

Seems about right to how I see the ABCD ratings are, and they don't really have anything to do with a region. ABCD is a standard rating for skill in general. D is just past beginner, C is someone learning to understand position, B is a pretty good player with consitency and speed issues, A is getting up there. They seem to click in nicely in 100 rating spreads in Fargo. D is 300s, C is 400s, B is 500s A is 600s, A+/Open-Pro level is 700-800

A good way to judge the ABCD rating is how well the player can handle playing the ghost (how many they can run with ball in hand before a miss). D is 2, maybe 3, C is 4-5, B is 6-7, A is 8-9. I consider myself to be a solid B+ and can beat the 7 ball ghost pretty consistently, usually in 9 or 10 ball when I have a clear table the games I mess up are usually on the last several balls.
 
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