'Naivete' and age, may not have that much to do with things..There are 'PBIA Master Instructors', (who I'm sure are older gentlemen)..yet they seem to operate with a very closed mind on this subject!
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Quality Instructors
- Thread starter Prince H
- Start date
'Naivete' and age, may not have that much to do with things..There are 'PBIA Master Instructors', (who I'm sure are older gentlemen)..yet they seem to operate with a very closed mind on this subject!
Ideally, I would like to learn from someone that was a champion of some kind. Someone that has been in the highest echelons of competition and the rigor that comes with that. You cannot communicate that which you have no first hand experience with. I want to know about the obvious and not so obvious effects of being a champion, as well as attaining that level of performance. If someone has never reached that pinnacle, then they may be able to teach me the basics (which is great), but then will not be able to teach me how to be a champion from the perspective of a champion... which, to me, is worth something.
Some just want to learn the game and be a student from people that know more than they do... absolutely nothing wrong with that, its how most people get better, and its how I've learned what I know. I have been fortunate enough to be around champions, and to be honest, most are willing to play you, but none I've met will train you unless you engage them as a compensated instructor (rightly so).
I REALLY do not believe that approaching the local short stop and donating cash to them in 9-ball races will benefit anyone to any degree... any degree.... none... zip. If you wanna donate cash, I'm here for ya 24/7 like a ROCK. If you want to learn, ask around for the nicest semi-skilled person and pay for their table time and drinks. They will smile and let you have a little knowledge if you are willing to learn and SHOW that you can learn. If you are hard headed or just not a nice person, then they will teach you bad kung fu as a joke, and people will laugh. It will be funny. I've had people teach me things that I had to de-bunk for myself by simply shooting it out a few hundred times. No one pulls the wool over the eyes of a Gambini.
Good luck,
Lesh
Some just want to learn the game and be a student from people that know more than they do... absolutely nothing wrong with that, its how most people get better, and its how I've learned what I know. I have been fortunate enough to be around champions, and to be honest, most are willing to play you, but none I've met will train you unless you engage them as a compensated instructor (rightly so).
I REALLY do not believe that approaching the local short stop and donating cash to them in 9-ball races will benefit anyone to any degree... any degree.... none... zip. If you wanna donate cash, I'm here for ya 24/7 like a ROCK. If you want to learn, ask around for the nicest semi-skilled person and pay for their table time and drinks. They will smile and let you have a little knowledge if you are willing to learn and SHOW that you can learn. If you are hard headed or just not a nice person, then they will teach you bad kung fu as a joke, and people will laugh. It will be funny. I've had people teach me things that I had to de-bunk for myself by simply shooting it out a few hundred times. No one pulls the wool over the eyes of a Gambini.
Good luck,
Lesh
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Coaches
Bob Bowman's highest swimming level was college team captain. His highest coaching "level" was Michael Phelps.
My contension is that an instructor's results with their students is the measure of quality instructors. What anyone uses as a yardstick to measure that is on them.
When I choose an instructor, I look at how their students are doing. If someone wants to look at how the instructor plays now or in the past as a measure of how well they improve students, why not. For me I like more causality.
Bob Bowman's highest swimming level was college team captain. His highest coaching "level" was Michael Phelps.
My contension is that an instructor's results with their students is the measure of quality instructors. What anyone uses as a yardstick to measure that is on them.
When I choose an instructor, I look at how their students are doing. If someone wants to look at how the instructor plays now or in the past as a measure of how well they improve students, why not. For me I like more causality.
Are you the same Rick who used to post as "ENGLISH!"?
Ya know what, never mind. Who you are and what you think about me -- or anything else, for that matter -- is irrelevant. And yes, my opinion should be irrelevant to you, as I'm sure it is.
Have a nice day.
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'Naivete' and age, may not have that much to do with things..There are 'PBIA Master Instructors', (who I'm sure are older gentlemen)..yet they seem to operate with a very closed mind on this subject!
What's the old saying? "You can lead a horse to water .......
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There have been many coaches that were not world beaters in their given sport while playing, but went on to be great coaches. You can be the best in the world, but that doesn't mean you have the ability to teach.
I gladly offer to teach people every time I go to the pool hall, but I refuse to even attempt to help people who are too stubborn to pay attention or learn.
There are some people who will ask you something and you attempt to explain it to them and they insist their way is better or try to tell you that your way is wrong. It doesn't matter that you beat them 15 games to 1 and they keep making the same mistakes over and over.
I play a guy like that every Sunday. He is a couple years older than me and has probably played for about the same length of time. He plays way more often than I do and they rate him as an "A" player in the tournaments. I beat him like a stepchild every time we play.
He reads books on pool all the time and will argue with you constantly. I will tell him I don't GAF what the book says. He thinks that the example he saw in the book is the Gospel and that is the only way it is done. He will do the same shit over and over and never learns from his mistakes. I just sit there and watch him and predict where he will screw up in almost every game. He refuses to learn.
There are some people who will ask you something and you attempt to explain it to them and they insist their way is better or try to tell you that your way is wrong. It doesn't matter that you beat them 15 games to 1 and they keep making the same mistakes over and over.
I play a guy like that every Sunday. He is a couple years older than me and has probably played for about the same length of time. He plays way more often than I do and they rate him as an "A" player in the tournaments. I beat him like a stepchild every time we play.
He reads books on pool all the time and will argue with you constantly. I will tell him I don't GAF what the book says. He thinks that the example he saw in the book is the Gospel and that is the only way it is done. He will do the same shit over and over and never learns from his mistakes. I just sit there and watch him and predict where he will screw up in almost every game. He refuses to learn.
This a great post and all, but that's not what the poll asked. Clearly, half the poll voters viewed the poll with a similar thought process as your post, but that still isnt what the poll asked.
Freddie
Sounds good, but can be difficult to know what really happens.
I see beginners and low level players with poor fundamentals. Some take lessons or get advice from better players and almost instantly jump up a level because their mechanics were so poor to begin with. Basic corrections resulted in big improvements.
Big improvements are much more difficult when you get to intermediate levels and up.
Plus, no matter how good the instructor is, the student needs to put in the table time and be open to the changes the instructor is suggesting. So is the poor improvement or good improvement of the student a result of the instructor, the practice habits of the student, or a combination of both ?
I am an intermediate player that started 5 yrs ago. Maybe as I become more experienced my opinion will change, but this is what I have seen so far playing in NYC, observing other players and myself.
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At all levels, it's a combination of both. The instructor can only show the path. After that, it is entirely up to the student to work to diligently follow the path shown.
That stated, if one has a poor instructor, one who shows the wrong path, then no amount of work to stay on that path will help the student. Fortunately, there aren't very many poor instructors teaching. (But, there are a lot of people giving bad advice about playing, they can be found in most pool rooms.)
Makes sense.
I have not seen or heard of any poor instructors. However, I do think there are differences in how people learn best and knowing yourself can help in selecting an instructor and lessons format with a style that matches your learning style.
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Kind of a misleading question. Are there really shots out there that instructors can't make ? They are not giving trick shot demonstrations.
Draw, stop, stun, follow, drag draw, banks, cut, kicks, jumps, breaks, masse, .
And of course, using the tangent line for position play. Does anyone really believe there is an instructor in the world that cannot do that ??
Been baseball hitting instructor for decades, turned my son into a power hitter, and I've never hit a homerun in my life. weird, huh ? He hit more homeruns by the time he was 10 then I hit in 40 years
Draw, stop, stun, follow, drag draw, banks, cut, kicks, jumps, breaks, masse, .
And of course, using the tangent line for position play. Does anyone really believe there is an instructor in the world that cannot do that ??
Been baseball hitting instructor for decades, turned my son into a power hitter, and I've never hit a homerun in my life. weird, huh ? He hit more homeruns by the time he was 10 then I hit in 40 years
True dat , I got a lesson from Scott lee right off the bat he picked up on 2 things , one I drop my elbow big time another was no consistent eye pattern or paractice stroke , one stroke hello how you doing another thing was my head cocked to the right shooting off my left eye ,,
Now things things were not going to all of a sudden get better during the lesson , I had to work on these things bad habits entrenched in your game over yrs actualy decades takes a lot of practice to correct ,
The most interesting thing was although I hit the ball very straight during our session I knew my head cocked was causing me to routinely miss certain cut shots especially thin ones down the rail that I use to never miss in my prime ,
Luckily I have a mirror at the end of my table so I could practice that part of it is a neck injury that caused it so I fight it sometimes but it's much better now
I worked on my eye pattern and my elbow drop and both are much better now and on some shots when I'm air stroking I'm doing it with no elbow drop in mind
My goal was to see if I could raise my game to A level from B I'm not quite sure if I'm A but I just had a pretty good run of local tourney play finishing 6 straight in the money worst being 5-6 and beating several solid A players along the way and easily my best run maybe ever
The point being is had I not seen Scott I would never have known about these flaws he's not here to hold my hand to practice these things it was up to me to do so myself , and it paid off
I know there's some world beaters here far better than me the best guys I've beat during this run are Fargo 635 3 times a 656 and lost 5-4 to a 730 not shaking the earth but for my 56 yr old ass I'm pretty happy with it ,
It was worth every cent I paid Scott
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I can't agree with this as I see your example as totally invalid - apples to oranges. Reason being is this : While we know that no human could possibly travel at the speed of light we also know that instructors CAN AND DO have the ability to play at a very strong speed.
'Naivete' and age, may not have that much to do with things..There are 'PBIA Master Instructors', (who I'm sure are older gentlemen)..yet they seem to operate with a very closed mind on this subject!
SJD, Of course all of the instructors have a closed mind on this subject. They have to lol! They all take the same position and that's because it's totally self-serving. Honestly I can't really say that I blame them though, it is their livelyhood and basically they are promoting their businesses. It's kinda like a winner down salesman going around telling people " look, there are plenty of other things you can spend that $30,000 on because the windows you have work just fine ". You could say that in most fields. Some might say what the instructors push is lies or at least dishonest to a degree but once again I can say they are just promoting their business.
Obviously there are folks on both sides of the fence on this one. I happen to agree with you for the most part. You are a couple generations ahead of me but we both saw the same things. I can't say I ever remember seeing any of the top players taking " lessons " when coming up. I wrote " lessons " this way because the word lesson is often used by instructors to help their narrative. If you were to just use a strict definition of the word then yes, all of us ( pool players ) at some point had someone show us something to help improve our game or someone " taught " us a thing or two along the way.
The way it always worked and I'd assume still does for the most part is is you were lucky enough to get a top player to take a liking to you they would " take you in under their wing ", some may call it mentoring , and they would " show you what ya needed to know. There really was none of this pay me $150 for a four hour lesson ( or whatever the price / time frame may be ), and then OK you've completed your first lesson - let's schedule the other 25 lessons or whatever. There was no do this drill a million times, do that drill 949,000 times, it was you got your action lined up and got up and played. If you and or your mentor noticed you were having problem with a specific shot then sure - you practiced it some till you were more comfortable with it.
Now as I've always said, I do believe instructors are a good thing and definitely have their place in pool. What that place is IMHO is where I differ from them. I think it's great for an instructor to to show a newbie or rookie the basics and if the new player doesn't necessarily have a " natural " talent then give them the basics and headed in the right direction. I'll even say folks that aren't a total novice can benefit from instruction. Once someone has learned the basics they will definitely need the table time and the experience from being in action ( more on this in a moment lol ) and at this point if they can not get it from one of their peers it would be a great time to start learning strategy from an instructor. After these stages though, I believe the best ( not necessarily the only ) way to get better is from just getting up and playing.
Now for the record, from this point on I will reference " getting in action ". I am fully aware for a multitude of reasons that every single person wanting to play pool and get good at it either can not or will not be able to gamble. With that in imd, I will include playing in tournaments as " getting in action ". It two fold - #1 that they are actually getting up and playing and putting in work and #2 ( which I consider critical and the most important part of playing with the pressure. Pressure as in whatever game they are playing actually means " something ", as opposed to beating balls around on a table when in essence even if you are totally focused and committedit really doesn't matter if you hang a 9 ball up in the jaws. It really doesn't matter if you run a 10 pack. You will neither win nor lose anything ( could be money or it could be advancing to the next round in a tournament ) but I'm sure you get the point. The old saying that goes something like this is what I am trying to convey what my belief is : fire makes gold ad pressure makes diamonds basically ( hope I didn't screw that one up too ad lol.
I know there are many folks that totally disagree with me on all of this and that's fine but I believe I have history on my side. What I mean is just look at all the truly GREAT players throughout history that never took " lessons ". And how many of those great players do you think cut their teeth you getting up, posting up, and then counting up the cheez! They hung around the pool rooms, they played, they learned. Got in action, went on the road, snapped off tournaments etc. One thing I do know with absolute certainty is IF ALL THINGS were able to be truly 100% totally even, if I were gonna have to bet my life on a match between a strictly tournament player up against an action player I'm taking the action player EVERY TIME. For anyone that has a problem with that viewpoint or statement just take a look at all of the great players ( both current and those throughout history ) what do 99% of them all have I common?????
Instructors are ...........................................................
Amen Pops! Imagine where we'd be without them...a lot farther behind the rest of the world than we are...and we're behind as it is! :grin: Of course all the really smart guys insist that if every player would only gamble all the time...LOL! What a crock!
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Hey Scott. Do you have a few stroke challenge shots for these self developed world beaters? See even though some of you guys may shoot pretty good. You don't shoot as good as top pros. Then there are some of us that don't shoot as good as you. So we all need work on our game. Even you. How is up to the individual.
Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
I am guessing that Lindenwood College is doing pretty decent in their Billiards program! Those kids must be gambling day and night to produce all of those young champions, glad to see that the school allowed this so they can be the #1 college for the billiards program in America.
People here in America are starting to see the value in Qualified Pool Instructors no matter what their tittle may be IE. PBIA, ACS ETC.
We (America) are putting out more high level juniors then ever before. Hear is a list of just a few that I have met, played or had the fortunate opportunity to work with.
Nick Evan
Ricky Evans
April Larson
Haley Fullerton
Ashley Fullerton
Briana Miller
Tanner Nickels
Manny Perez
We are in the days now that the "OLD" way is not working anymore and the new way is taking a foot hold and growing. There is less than 300 PBIA instructors not sure about any numbers for the other organizations.
The last thing that I will say on this subject is here is what I believe to be a good formula for success:
1. Get QUAULITY instruction on the fundamentals of the game.
2. Put in a lot of table time.
3. Continue seeing instructors, there is no 1 size fits all.
4. Test your skill in action/tournaments.
5. Put in MORE table time.
People here in America are starting to see the value in Qualified Pool Instructors no matter what their tittle may be IE. PBIA, ACS ETC.
We (America) are putting out more high level juniors then ever before. Hear is a list of just a few that I have met, played or had the fortunate opportunity to work with.
Nick Evan
Ricky Evans
April Larson
Haley Fullerton
Ashley Fullerton
Briana Miller
Tanner Nickels
Manny Perez
We are in the days now that the "OLD" way is not working anymore and the new way is taking a foot hold and growing. There is less than 300 PBIA instructors not sure about any numbers for the other organizations.
The last thing that I will say on this subject is here is what I believe to be a good formula for success:
1. Get QUAULITY instruction on the fundamentals of the game.
2. Put in a lot of table time.
3. Continue seeing instructors, there is no 1 size fits all.
4. Test your skill in action/tournaments.
5. Put in MORE table time.
Yeah, great, no top pro took lessons. First, that is BS, somebody taught them something. Earl learned from his dad, SVB learned from his mother and grandmother, but pretty good shooters.
And those few pros who never were taught a thing, great for them. Terrible for the other 30 million folks that want to play better pool.
You have to remember, MOST , like 99% of folks don't want to turn pro. They are amatuers, and this is their hobby. They want to be better, and don't want to play money games, or go on the road, or get their brains beat out by better players for a decade, or be their teams "low rated player, but so they can compete in their local league and enjoy the game more. It's ALWAYS more fun when you win, I defy anyone to say it's not.
So, should folks just continue to struggle or get better ? They do it in every other sport imaginable to get better, but for some reason, pool is go gosh down special, that everybody and his brother should be able to learn it on their own, at their own pace, and the knowledge should some how just "come" to them in a dream
C"mon.
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