Hand touching chest on draw shots

bbb said:

if i remember my calculus correctly a curve/ arc could be measured as a series of small straight lines with different vectors and there was some formula we had to know to prove it
that was a long time ago and i could be misremembering
i think we will all agree a cueball or object ball is round
yet even tho its round its able to "rest" on its base implyong to me there is that one little flat spot on that round object
is it possible in that arc/round pendulum there is also that little flat spot??
i am not a bio mechanic or a professional instructor

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Larry,

Since the 'sweet spot' thread was just closed, I've reconsidered a long explanation that I just typed to you.

I'll just say that there is not a straight line direction travel along a pendulum arc, not even from one point to the next. Each vector of two points, one to the next would point in a different direction.

Did you read my reply to Jon? There are some relevant points in that post.

Best Wishes,
Rick

BeiberLvr said:

The bolded is not based on any facts. The only, and I repeat only thing that matters, is that the cue be straight at time of contact.

I know that I tend to drop my elbow at times after contact, but I don't fool myself into believing it's because it does anything extra for the shot. And like I already said, I think a stroke can still be classified as pendulum with an elbow drop as long as contact occurs at 90* and the drop is after contact.

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Jon,

So to you, if one were to allow the elbow to drop as the cue is pulled back straight away from the ball & then 'pulled' it straight forward & made contact with the arm at 90* & then allowed the elbow to drop as the cue is 'pushed' straight through contact & into a follow through or finish, then that would still be a pendulum stroke, to you?

Well then... a 'pendulum stroke' can have straight line tip movement for several inches as long as the elbow is allowed to drop before & after contact.:wink:

I think that there might be a better name for that type of stroke than a pendulum stroke.

Best to Y'a,
Rick

Rick, you just described my stroke. My elbow drops a little on the pull back and raises slightly during the start of the forward stroke. I use an elbow drop during the follow through as well. That is why I originally referred to my stroke as a piston. However, after watching a video of myself I can clearly see the pendulum aspect to it. I guess it's a bastard hybrid of the two types. The reason I hit myself in the chest enough to be sore is probably due to the drill I'm doing. It requires a firm hit and I follow through nine inches past the CB according to the marks on my table. It appears that the left turn mark on my table happens after the tip is six inches past the CB. I have learned that at the six inch mark my arm is completely collapsed and my hand is against my chest. My hand and arm then deflect away from my body causing the part of the cue in front of my bridge to veer to the left during the last three inches of my follow through. I'm not sure if I should leave it alone or work on shortening the follow through a bit. I've hit like this for years and play fairly well so perhaps it is not an issue.

A video will help some. Are you doing the mother drill with the open bridge at break speed?

For what is worth, I don't think shortening your follow through is a solution.

How will you know when to stop, will you be able to stop you follow through in the same place every time? The biggest problem with that is you have to think some during the stroke (which should be automatic) and you may have a tendency of slowing down your stroke before contact with the CB in anticipation of stopping at a shorter distance. That will wreck havoc on your consistency in the CB movement after the shot.

Regardless the type of stroke you have, it is more important to be consistent. There naturally will be shots that based on the circumstance will require a shorter follow through, but I am taking to that type of shot that you play 80 percent of the time.

JolietJames said:

Rick, you just described my stroke. My elbow drops a little on the pull back and raises slightly during the start of the forward stroke. I use an elbow drop during the follow through as well. That is why I originally referred to my stroke as a piston. However, after watching a video of myself I can clearly see the pendulum aspect to it. I guess it's a bastard hybrid of the two types. The reason I hit myself in the chest enough to be sore is probably due to the drill I'm doing. It requires a firm hit and I follow through nine inches past the CB according to the marks on my table. It appears that the left turn mark on my table happens after the tip is six inches past the CB. I have learned that at the six inch mark my arm is completely collapsed and my hand is against my chest. My hand and arm then deflect away from my body causing the part of the cue in front of my bridge to veer to the left during the last three inches of my follow through. I'm not sure if I should leave it alone or work on shortening the follow through a bit. I've hit like this for years and play fairly well so perhaps it is not an issue.

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JolietJames said:

Rick, you just described my stroke. My elbow drops a little on the pull back and raises slightly during the start of the forward stroke. I use an elbow drop during the follow through as well. That is why I originally referred to my stroke as a piston. However, after watching a video of myself I can clearly see the pendulum aspect to it. I guess it's a bastard hybrid of the two types. The reason I hit myself in the chest enough to be sore is probably due to the drill I'm doing. It requires a firm hit and I follow through nine inches past the CB according to the marks on my table. It appears that the left turn mark on my table happens after the tip is six inches past the CB. I have learned that at the six inch mark my arm is completely collapsed and my hand is against my chest. My hand and arm then deflect away from my body causing the part of the cue in front of my bridge to veer to the left during the last three inches of my follow through. I'm not sure if I should leave it alone or work on shortening the follow through a bit. I've hit like this for years and play fairly well so perhaps it is not an issue.

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James,

What you have said about your stroke & what Jon has said is part of what upsets me a bit on this forum.

Many want to call 'every' stroke 'a pendulum stroke'. If the elbow drops how can you refer to it as a pendulum stroke when a pendulum swings from a fixed apex? So...this instructor teaches the pendulum. Does he teach your stoke or my stroke. No, probably not.

Just for an example let me offer up this hypothetical.

Someone picks out a famous pro & refers to their stroke as a pendulum stroke, when it is not. It might have one aspect in common with a pendulum stroke like the swinging up in the back stroke with the elbow still but the delivery might involve some change in the grip or the wrist or the shoulder or something because the delivery winds up being a dropped elbow & a straight extension through the ball. So... 'the pendulum stroke' gets some credit for their stroke because someone here on AZB called it a pendulum stroke, when it fact it is nothing like a true pendulum stroke except that maybe the elbow stays still in the backstroke. So now, 'everyone' wants to learn the so & so pro's 'pendulum' stroke & signs up for lessons to learn it but the so & so pro's stroke is probably not what will be taught them by the instructor because they teach a true pendulum stroke.

I hope you see my point.

I hate to say it but it is almost like the old 'bait & switch'. Not technically but still a mis-representation has occurred due to a mis-categorization of a famous pro's stroke.

As I have said before, my hand never hits my chest. I do not use a pendulum stroke & to me, in my opinion, the hand swinging up requires a perfect set up for it to work as designed. Notice I said designed as IMO it is a contrived method.

The follow through or finish after the ball is gone obviously does not effect the ball as so many want to point out. But...the follow through is effected by what happened before & during contact. In golf, a trained or experienced eye can see someone's follow through or finish & tell you what the ball flight was without ever seeing the golf ball in flight.

Can you hit the cue ball straight up table hard with a low hit on the ball & have it come back to where your tip would be if your follow through was straight, in other words without putting any english on the ball. If so, then there is probably no need to change. But... if you can not then, yes you have a flaw somewhere in your delivery. IMO the same thing goes for the up & down contact with the cue ball but it is much much less obvious & many just do not want to admit that a tip arcing up or arcing down is less precise than a tip that is moving straight & an arcing tip stroke has much less margin for error & the method of the arcing tip requires a perfect set up for it to work as designed or as I like to say contrived.

Sorry for the rant but I have not yet had my morning coffee & you hit on a touchy subject for me.

I sincerely hope that you work out your issue or find that you really don't have an issue so you can stop worrying about it & play your best.

Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick

No problem at all. I don't get offended by posts on here and don't feel anything you wrote would be considered offensive to anyone else. Let me just write a couple things here.
To the previous poster, the drill I was referring to was Bert Kinister's mighty X.
I posted in this thread just to tell the OP that I also hit my chest on my follow through. I read most of the replies to the OP in case it pointed to a flaw. I took a few months off and have now hit balls for the last week or so and can feel things coming back to form. I have five weeks to get back in stroke and feel I'll get there in time for the event. Once I'm back to doing all my drills on a daily basis I won't be bothered with questions or thoughts about my stroke when I'm down on the ball.
Yes, I can draw the CB back to my cue when I'm playing regularly. I'm working on my consistency right now to get back to where I was in May. At the time I had to quit playing I was successfully shooting the X drill shot 30% of the time and I challenge anyone on the boards to beat that percentage on a 9 foot GC with pockets under 4 inches like mine. Right now I'm at about 5% because my stroke is covered in rust! I'll get there, no doubt.

Thanks,
James

JolietJames said:

No problem at all. I don't get offended by posts on here and don't feel anything you wrote would be considered offensive to anyone else. Let me just write a couple things here.
To the previous poster, the drill I was referring to was Bert Kinister's mighty X.
I posted in this thread just to tell the OP that I also hit my chest on my follow through. I read most of the replies to the OP in case it pointed to a flaw. I took a few months off and have now hit balls for the last week or so and can feel things coming back to form. I have five weeks to get back in stroke and feel I'll get there in time for the event. Once I'm back to doing all my drills on a daily basis I won't be bothered with questions or thoughts about my stroke when I'm down on the ball.
Yes, I can draw the CB back to my cue when I'm playing regularly. I'm working on my consistency right now to get back to where I was in May. At the time I had to quit playing I was successfully shooting the X drill shot 30% of the time and I challenge anyone on the boards to beat that percentage on a 9 foot GC with pockets under 4 inches like mine. Right now I'm at about 5% because my stroke is covered in rust! I'll get there, no doubt.

Thanks,
James

Click to expand...

That rust will come off with a little more oil in your stoking arm

Mighty x is a good drill do you do it with no practice strokes?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.

James,

I'm glad we're good & I wish some others saw me as apparently you do.

Just to make sure that we are clear, I was not talking about drawing the ball back to your cue on a shot.

I was talking about shooting from near one rail longways to the other rail while hitting the cue ball low and hard & have it come straight back with no english.

If you can do that then your non-straight finish is not a problem, at least not right now. I would still want mine straight though.

Good Luck in the training & the Best of Wishes in the Event & in Life,
Rick

Tony_in_MD said:

That rust will come off with a little more oil in your stoking arm

Mighty x is a good drill do you do it with no practice strokes?

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I do the drill with practice strokes 90% of the time. I only do the drill without when I'm working on something.

Kim Bye said:

8 pages - This is crazy!
I i had my wife take a few videos on my home table with my mobile camera, so don`t expect pro quality...
I just got to point out that I`m in no way an advanced player, so be forgiving

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZQe2k1Ugnw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WewbUGPnOv8

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Was that a breakshot, or a regular stroke?

Kim Bye said:

Power draw shot.

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Well, for starters, try moving everything up on the cue so you can start with your forearm ninety degrees to the floor. You are starting with it already bent, so you have no room to travel before you hit your chest.

Kim Bye said:

Follow shot: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj54W6W7m34

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Your cue is nice and straight until about four inches from the cb. Then it dips down. Try getting your bridge hand closer to the cb. Will feel awkward for a while, but will really help.