if the APA handicap system really works

Total_Chaos13 · Apr 18, 2011

lorider said:
very well said. i asked the apa bashers in an earlier post to name one league that gives a2 a better chance to beat a7 than the apa does. havent got a reply yet, wonder why ? i also used my team as an example of how fair the handicapping is. we have the lowest handicap in our division yet we are in 1st place in 9 ball and 3rd in 8 ball.below is tonights results.

9 ball

i am a 4 and beat an 8

our 2 beat a 4

our 3 beat a 3

our 3 beat a 4

our 5 beat a3

8 ball

i am a 5 and lost to a 4, thats a whole story in itself.

our 3 beat a 3

our 3 beat a 6

our 4 lost to a 3

our 4 beat a 7

in 10 matches we had 5 weaker players beat their stronger players

we had 2 wins playing even

we had 1 win with our stronger vs their weaker.

they had 2 wins with their weaker vs our stronger.

7 out of 10 were won by a weaker player, 2 played even and 1 was won by a stronger player.

seems like a pretty fair system to me.

lo i got a few questions about your team if you don't mind answering. Let me first say the reason i am asking is because of my own APA experiences over the last 4 years.

Whats your team breakdown in handicap?
Whats there winning percentage this session?

In the example above about how often does this happen?

in 9 ball:
you beat an 8?
2 beat a 4?

in 8 ball:
3 beat a 6?
4 beat a 7?

How often does this team finish in the top 1-3 of the division?

If you league does the local mvp award how often does a member of your team win it?

The reason I'm asking is that I started out on a team similar to this. We finished first place in out division and by the time playoffs then then money cup came around over half the team had been raised. Just wondering how things work in other apa leagues.

lorider · Apr 18, 2011

Total_Chaos13 said:
lo i got a few questions about your team if you don't mind answering. Let me first say the reason i am asking is because of my own APA experiences over the last 4 years.

Whats your team breakdown in handicap?
Whats there winning percentage this session?

In the example above about how often does this happen?

in 9 ball:
you beat an 8?
2 beat a 4?

in 8 ball:
3 beat a 6?
4 beat a 7?

How often does this team finish in the top 1-3 of the division?

If you league does the local mvp award how often does a member of your team win it?

The reason I'm asking is that I started out on a team similar to this. We finished first place in out division and by the time playoffs then then money cup came around over half the team had been raised. Just wondering how things work in other apa leagues.

very good questions chaos. i dont mind answering them. i pulled our team stats off the apa website for you. they include name,s/l win-loss record and top gun points awarded. keep in mind this does not include last nights scores but it includes this session up to last night. this is a new team, the top 3 players listed left a team last session and formed this team. my name is listed first.

8 ball s/l won lost win % top gun 9 ball s/l won lost win% top gun

buddy 5 6 5 54.5% 32 4 6 4 60% 26

ronnie 4 7 2 77.8% 24 5 5 5 50% 23

pam 3 6 5 54.5% 23 2 4 5 44.4% 8

james 4 5 3 62.5% 22 3 3 5 37.5% 11

judy 2 2 3 40 % 5 1 2 4 33.3% 4

marlon 2 3 5 37.5% 12 3 5 2 71.4% 27

jason 3 0 4 0 0 3 3 1 75% 6

ronnie is the captain and usually chooses me or marlon to play higher handicaps and sometimes himself. as you can see by my top gun score all my wins have come against higher handicap players. beating the 8 in 9 ball will give me a total of 32 points in 5 wins. the same as in 8 ball. the 3 that beat a 6 in 8 ball last night was jason. he was overdue with 4 straight losses. his winning percentage in 9 ball is great but then he only beat 3 2s as you can see by his points. our winning % in 8 ball is 50% and 9 ball its 52.6%. not too bad considering we are the only team in our division without a 6 or higher s/l.

the best we can field in 8 ball is 19 and 18 in 9 ball.

lorider · Apr 18, 2011

darn ! i spaced the numbers out . when i submitted the post the numbers all came together. i got to go play in my money league now. i will try to redo it later when i get back.

lorider · Apr 18, 2011

Total_Chaos13 said:
lo i got a few questions about your team if you don't mind answering. Let me first say the reason i am asking is because of my own APA experiences over the last 4 years.

Whats your team breakdown in handicap?
Whats there winning percentage this session?

In the example above about how often does this happen?

in 9 ball:
you beat an 8?
2 beat a 4?

in 8 ball:
3 beat a 6?
4 beat a 7?

How often does this team finish in the top 1-3 of the division?

If you league does the local mvp award how often does a member of your team win it?

The reason I'm asking is that I started out on a team similar to this. We finished first place in out division and by the time playoffs then then money cup came around over half the team had been raised. Just wondering how things work in other apa leagues.

going to try to give you the info in a different format . we are a new team. the 1st 3 players listed have been playing together for 4 sessions now. the other 4 are friends of the captain and new to league play. we quit our previous team after 3 sessions because of too much drama. i am the only one that has played in a league before us 3 joined apa 4 sessions ago. i started in bca 4 years ago and was a 7 before i got injured and quit playing for 2 years.

ronnie-our captain.
8 ball s/l 4 won 7 lost 2. 4th on mvp list. 5th in top gun with 24 points
9 ball s/l 5 won 5 lost 5. 3rd on mvp list. 3rd in top gun with 23 points

pam- my gf
8 ball s/l 3 won 6 lost 5. 3rd on mvp list. 1st in top gun with 23 points
9 ball s/l 2 won 4 lost 5. not on mvp or top gun list but has 8 points

buddy- thats me
8 ball s/l 5 won 6 lost 5. not on mvp list. 1st in top gun with 32 points.
9 ball s/l 4 won 6 lost 4. 10th on mvp list. 1st in top gun with 26 points

james - new
8 ball s/l 4 won 5 lost 3. 9th on mvp list. 8th in top gun with 22 points
9 ball s/l 3 won 3 lost 5. not on mvp or top gun list but has 11 points

judy- captains sister
8 ball s/l 2 won 2 lost 3 not on mvp or top gun list but has 5 points
9 ball s/l 1 won 2 lost 4 not on mvp or top gun list but has 4 points

marlon - new
8 ball s/l 2 won 3 lost 5. not on mvp list. 10 in top gun with 12 points
9 ball s/l 3 won 5 lost 2. 5th on mvp list. 1st in top gun with 27 points

jason- new
8 ball s/l 3 won 0 lost 4 not on mvp or top gun list. he beat a 6 last night
9 ball s/l 3 won 3 lost 1 3rd on mvp list. has 6 points

8 ball team win percentage is 50%
9 ball team win percentage is 52.6%

this not include last nights results.
the best we can field in 8 ball is a 19 h.c.
the best we can field in 9 ball is an 18 h.c.

we are the only team in our division that does not have a 6 or higher s/l yet we are in 1st place in 9 ball and 3rd in 8 ball.

sorry for the long post but tried to give the info you asked for and probly a little more

RunoutJJ · Apr 18, 2011

I couldnt agree more!!! What a great post!!! You are right!! If everybody is an ESTABLISHED member who cares if you have a team of 4 SL7's and 3 SL9's??? What should it matter if you stack a team to crush the crap out of the other little man squads??

You want to know the real answer?? Are you ready for it????

Money!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :angry:

RunoutJJ · Apr 18, 2011

All about da money brother... Sorry to say it but thats about it....

ottersbro · Apr 19, 2011

lorider said:
very well said. i asked the apa bashers in an earlier post to name one league that gives a2 a better chance to beat a7 than the apa does. havent got a reply yet, wonder why ? i also used my team as an example of how fair the handicapping is. we have the lowest handicap in our division yet we are in 1st place in 9 ball and 3rd in 8 ball.below is tonights results.

9 ball

i am a 4 and beat an 8

our 2 beat a 4

our 3 beat a 3

our 3 beat a 4

our 5 beat a3

8 ball

i am a 5 and lost to a 4, thats a whole story in itself.

our 3 beat a 3

our 3 beat a 6

our 4 lost to a 3

our 4 beat a 7

in 10 matches we had 5 weaker players beat their stronger players

we had 2 wins playing even

we had 1 win with our stronger vs their weaker.

they had 2 wins with their weaker vs our stronger.

7 out of 10 were won by a weaker player, 2 played even and 1 was won by a stronger player.

seems like a pretty fair system to me.

so what your saying here is the 23 rule shouldnt matter.

ignomirello · Apr 19, 2011

Sandbaggers :-( Why do they have to ruin things?

Sandbaggers :-( Why do they have to ruin things?

Everytime somebody comes up with a reasonable handicap system, Somebody always has to ruin it with sandbagging.

Tri-State Tour, BCA, Predator Tour, Mezz or Whatever tour. The people who put those tours together do their best.
They try to bring players in the tournament at a reasonable level with the help of pool room owners, other players
& what they might see. Remember they are human, people make mistakes in rating people or get wrong information.

Just remember if it wasn't for the people organizing the tournaments you probably wouldn't be playing!
So sometimes something is better than nothing.

I feel your pain I see many players at levels they shouldn't be. But when you see this, It is your responsibility to report this
to the tournament director Even if he/she is underrated report it.

cuesmith · Apr 19, 2011

KoolKiller said:
then why they put a "23" cap to all the teams?

It's my second year with APA and I was asked to NOT to play 100% so that I don't get bumped on my handicap. I actually don't care about free Vegas trips that much and just want to improve my game and have some fun. Now if I go to next level then my team won't even have 5 players to play. My team is qualified for competing for Vegas trip in June and I don't want to "disqualify" the team just because I play better pool than I used to.

My question is that if the handicap really works like they acclaimed, that a SL2 can really compete with a SL7 and have an equal chance of winning, how about eliminating the 23 cap and let the team have the freedom of having all 7s if they choose so? I will still form my team with a bunch of 4 and 5s even if there is no 23 cap.

Comments?

As I've been saying for years and no one can deny, the APA actually uses this as a sort of pyramid scheme to force teams to split and form 2 new teams where they are forced to find new, low handicapped players to make up the teams. I was given this as part of the sales pitch 30 years ago when I owned a bar and was approached by a league operator for the Busch League. Some people actually consider this a good thing, because they feel it brings new faces into pool. I don't happen to belong to that school of thought because it doesn't show them pool in the proper light. As you pointed out it encourages, no requires sandbagging for teams to stay together and penalizes people for improving. How can that be good for pool?

justadub · Apr 19, 2011

ottersbro said:
so what your saying here is the 23 rule shouldnt matter.

No, not really.

His team is roughly 50% against other teams that are also using the 23 rule.

If his team was playing teams of all SL6's and SL7's, it is quite likely that their winning percentage would be much lower.

cuesmith · Apr 19, 2011

justadub said:
No, not really.

His team is roughly 50% against other teams that are also using the 23 rule.

If his team was playing teams of all SL6's and SL7's, it is quite likely that their winning percentage would be much lower.

You can't have it both ways. Either the handicap system works or it doesn't. If it worked there would be no need for the "23 rule" except to make more money for the league operators.

Let me correct that, not the league operator per se more like the league owners in St. Louis. I don't begrudge the league operators earning a decent living. They deserve to with all they have to put up with, but the owners IMHO are greedy and don't care one bit about the sport itself, just their bottom line!

justadub · Apr 19, 2011

cuesmith said:
You can't have it both ways. Either the handicap system works or it doesn't. If it worked there would be no need for the "23 rule" except to make more money for the league operators.

I will not dispute that the 23 rule certainly works to generate more income for APA and it's LO's. That isn't a bad thing, in my opinion. Something financially successful in pool and all it gets is derision and condemnation.

However, I will dispute the notion that the handicap system is so foolproof that the 23 rule isn't necessary.

You've been around pool long enough to know that the better players win most of the time. If a team that is primarily SL3's to SL5's has to play teams that are all SL6's and SL7's (stacked teams) the lower level teams are going to lose most of the time. Not all the time, and not every match. But the percentages will be against them.

Part of the success of APA is that teams can't be stacked, and on any given night any given team can win. If you eliminate the 23 rule and allow stacked teams, over time many of the lesser players will stop playing (and paying!) and the leagues will get smaller. And since there is no need to recruit new players, the cycle will repeat, and the leagues will continue to shrink.

Growth is key to any successful business. Creating an environment where new players aren't going to have a chance won't foster growth.

Don't say this won't happen. At the fraternal club where I play, there are in-house leagues (you think APA has sandbagging? You should see this bunch!), as well as state-wide tournaments between different clubs. Guess what happens? They stack a few teams with all the best players. Makes the rest of us less enthused about playing, especially when you have to travel.

Before we go down the predictable next road, yes, I want to play better players than myself, it's the only way to really improve. But not all casual players feel that way. They are the target market for APA. That's why the system works as well as it does, despite being offensive to "better" players.

APA gets a bunch of people playing pool that wouldn't otherwise. That should be applauded. If you want a higher level of pool, by all means go do that. Don't try and make APA into something it's not supposed to be in the first place.

Total_Chaos13 · Apr 19, 2011

lorider said:
going to try to give you the info in a different format . we are a new team. the 1st 3 players listed have been playing together for 4 sessions now. the other 4 are friends of the captain and new to league play. we quit our previous team after 3 sessions because of too much drama. i am the only one that has played in a league before us 3 joined apa 4 sessions ago. i started in bca 4 years ago and was a 7 before i got injured and quit playing for 2 years.

ronnie-our captain.
8 ball s/l 4 won 7 lost 2. 4th on mvp list. 5th in top gun with 24 points
9 ball s/l 5 won 5 lost 5. 3rd on mvp list. 3rd in top gun with 23 points

pam- my gf
8 ball s/l 3 won 6 lost 5. 3rd on mvp list. 1st in top gun with 23 points
9 ball s/l 2 won 4 lost 5. not on mvp or top gun list but has 8 points

buddy- thats me
8 ball s/l 5 won 6 lost 5. not on mvp list. 1st in top gun with 32 points.
9 ball s/l 4 won 6 lost 4. 10th on mvp list. 1st in top gun with 26 points

james - new
8 ball s/l 4 won 5 lost 3. 9th on mvp list. 8th in top gun with 22 points
9 ball s/l 3 won 3 lost 5. not on mvp or top gun list but has 11 points

judy- captains sister
8 ball s/l 2 won 2 lost 3 not on mvp or top gun list but has 5 points
9 ball s/l 1 won 2 lost 4 not on mvp or top gun list but has 4 points

marlon - new
8 ball s/l 2 won 3 lost 5. not on mvp list. 10 in top gun with 12 points
9 ball s/l 3 won 5 lost 2. 5th on mvp list. 1st in top gun with 27 points

jason- new
8 ball s/l 3 won 0 lost 4 not on mvp or top gun list. he beat a 6 last night
9 ball s/l 3 won 3 lost 1 3rd on mvp list. has 6 points

8 ball team win percentage is 50%
9 ball team win percentage is 52.6%

this not include last nights results.
the best we can field in 8 ball is a 19 h.c.
the best we can field in 9 ball is an 18 h.c.

we are the only team in our division that does not have a 6 or higher s/l yet we are in 1st place in 9 ball and 3rd in 8 ball.

sorry for the long post but tried to give the info you asked for and probly a little more

Thanks for the details. I started out on a team like yours a few years back but we have had so many issues with handicaps being raised we have had to ask people not to play and bring in new players.

Wow im actually surprised that your in first and 3rd with those winning percentages. My Sunday DJ team finished tied for 4th in 8 ball with a 53% winning percentage and in 9 ball 6th with 49.1%. My Tuesday DJ team finished in 1st for 8ball with 66.2% and 7th in 9 ball at 50.7% Only problem is that on Sunday's team we have had 3 people in 8 ball and 5 of the 8 in 9 ball go up to where in 9 ball we can barley field a competitive team. Tuesday is having similar problems. It just seems like finishing first is a huge disadvantage to a team in apa.

cuesmith · Apr 19, 2011

justadub said:
I will not dispute that the 23 rule certainly works to generate more income for APA and it's LO's. That isn't a bad thing, in my opinion. Something financially successful in pool and all it gets is derision and condemnation.

However, I will dispute the notion that the handicap system is so foolproof that the 23 rule isn't necessary.

You've been around pool long enough to know that the better players win most of the time. If a team that is primarily SL3's to SL5's has to play teams that are all SL6's and SL7's (stacked teams) the lower level teams are going to lose most of the time. Not all the time, and not every match. But the percentages will be against them.

Part of the success of APA is that teams can't be stacked, and on any given night any given team can win. If you eliminate the 23 rule and allow stacked teams, over time many of the lesser players will stop playing (and paying!) and the leagues will get smaller. And since there is no need to recruit new players, the cycle will repeat, and the leagues will continue to shrink.

Growth is key to any successful business. Creating an environment where new players aren't going to have a chance won't foster growth.

Don't say this won't happen. At the fraternal club where I play, there are in-house leagues (you think APA has sandbagging? You should see this bunch!), as well as state-wide tournaments between different clubs. Guess what happens? They stack a few teams with all the best players. Makes the rest of us less enthused about playing, especially when you have to travel.

Before we go down the predictable next road, yes, I want to play better players than myself, it's the only way to really improve. But not all casual players feel that way. They are the target market for APA. That's why the system works as well as it does, despite being offensive to "better" players.

APA gets a bunch of people playing pool that wouldn't otherwise. That should be applauded. If you want a higher level of pool, by all means go do that. Don't try and make APA into something it's not supposed to be in the first place.

If the handicap system still lets the better player win most of the time, which I don't see a problem with if it's not too lopsided, then let them make adjustments to even it up a

little better. Frankly the better player should win more than he loses so that the weaker player will strive to improve through practice and lessons, instead of manipulating their

numbers. Give the weaker players a goal to improve instead of punishing them for improving. That's the real issue in my mind! But then the league owners would only make a

couple of million a year instead of 20. The league system should also try to support the sport by helping the players advance into the semi-pro and professional ranks. There

should be qualifiers within the league system that send players to play in pro events instead of keeping completely separate from them. If you talk to league players very few

even know who the pros are. That's ridiculous! Instead the leagues are just a social outing, something to do while you get drunk! In Asia and Europe things are just the opposite.

Thats why were getting our asses kicked in the international events and why pool in general is a dead issue here in the US! The APA has within it's grasp, the ability to turn

everything around and make pool great, instead all they want to make great is their own bank roll! The APA is the single worse thing that has happened to pool in the last 100

years when if they weren't so greedy, it could be the best! And it's all based upon the "23 Rule"!

justadub · Apr 19, 2011

sigh........

jlynn73 · Apr 19, 2011

So if you're really good, you're forced to play with people who completely suck. Sounds like my kind of league~

LeagueGuy · Apr 19, 2011

cuesmith said:
The APA is the single worse thing that has happened to pool in the last 100

years when if they weren't so greedy, it could be the best! And it's all based upon the "23 Rule"!

Sherm,

I can understand your argument that the APA 23 rule does offer an opportunity for recreational or low level players to compete without any interest in getting better. I don't agree with the fact that the 23 rule is responsible for the reason why pro pool is the way it is although I can see how you can make a case for it.

However, to say that the APA is bad for pool in general is just plain wrong in my opinion.

Without the 300,000 players every week how many pool rooms would have gone under in the past ten years. How many cues have been sold to those 300,000 players. How many tables have been recovered because of play on the tables that would not have been there. How many home tables have been sold because of a new player finding a game they love because of the league.

I agree that people can make an argument that the 23 rule means teams have to adjust rosters every now and again or even find new players on occassion, but the 23 rule keeps the league balanced and fair. In my area, 2 non-handicapped leagues folded and the APA leagues are growing. Mostly becuase in the non handicapped leagues, the same team won all the time.

I know we will never agree on the 23 rule and the APA but I find it hard to believe from someone who works in the industry, that you feel that anyone bringing in 300,000 players into the game is bad for pool.
Could the APA do more, yes they probably could. Should they do more, that is their business and it is up to them if they do it or not.

Just my opinion.

Leagueguy

LeagueGuy · Apr 19, 2011

"I couldnt agree more!!! What a great post!!! You are right!! If everybody is an ESTABLISHED member who cares if you have a team of 4 SL7's and 3 SL9's??? What should it matter if you stack a team to crush the crap out of the other little man squads??"

If you have a team that constantly crushes the others, how long are those others going to keep playing. Not very long in my experience.

Weekly, non-handicapped tournaments are pretty much dead in many of the areas that I play or have played in. Simply because the same players cashed and the bottom feeders stopped coming.

In order to have a sucessful league, you need competition. You can't have 2/3 of the participants know that on any given night they have no chance of winning.

Leaguegy

Winston846 · Apr 19, 2011

LeagueGuy said:
Without the 300,000 players every week how many pool rooms would have gone under in the past ten years.

Probably the same amount that already have - at least in my area. When I played APA, the only time I ever visited a "poolroom" (poolroom being defined as a place strictly for pool with 9' tables) was for the novelty tournaments (singles, doubles, money shoots, etc.) and there were only a few of those per year. Certainly not enough for a poolroom to sustain a business on. All the "league" APA I played was in bars on barboxes. The presence of the APA in my area makes no noticeable difference in the thriving of the local pool halls - they all play/practice in bars. In fact, I can name 5 poolrooms which have shut down in my area in the last 10-15 years despite the presence of the APA.

cuesmith · Apr 19, 2011

Winston846 said:
Probably the same amount that already have - at least in my area. When I played APA, the only time I ever visited a "poolroom" (poolroom being defined as a place strictly for pool with 9' tables) was for the novelty tournaments (singles, doubles, money shoots, etc.) and there were only a few of those per year. Certainly not enough for a poolroom to sustain a business on. All the "league" APA I played was in bars on barboxes. The presence of the APA in my area makes no noticeable difference in the thriving of the local pool halls - they all play/practice in bars. In fact, I can name 5 poolrooms which have shut down in my area in the last 10-15 years despite the presence of the APA.

It may even be the other way around. I owned a couple of poolrooms and the pool players weren't interested in leagues. I tried to get leagues going in my rooms and they just wouldn't fly, but I think we might have lost business to the bars that had leagues. I think more of the people who play in leagues would frequent pool rooms if they didn't have the leagues.

There's a big difference between "Pool Players" and "League Players"! Pool players are interested in the sport and want to improve. League players just want something to do while they drink and instead of playing real pool, they play the numbers manipulation games to keep their handicaps low.

if the APA handicap system really works

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