if the APA handicap system really works

[phread59]

Jusadub I will respectfully disagree with you. I'm an APA 3. You as a captain do NOT want to put you're 6 or 7 up against me. My biggest problem is physical. I have been a dealership line mechanic for over 30 years. It has taken a toll on me. there are days shooting leagues I hurt at the table severely. So my mechanics suffer. On a good day I can hang with a solid 6. On a bad day I have difficulty with a 2.

Our captain looks to throw me at 6's and 7's. I win about 33% of the time. It doesn't bother me to shoot a 6 or 7. I practice on Sunday at my 9 ball home bar. I shoot no one lower than a 4 there. Abunch of 6's and 7's usually shows up. So being down means nothing to me. I give it 110% every game. One of 2 things can happen. I pick off the 6 0r 7 and we get games we otherwise would not have. Or I get jackhammered and we lose nothing. So feed me the 6's. I love it when they fail a runout and leave an open table. That is where I'm at my best. Love to watch their faces when I run a pile of balls and drop the 8. However all the teams in our league have learned this the hard way. Now I rarely get a high ranked shooter. I get 2's and 3's. And I struggle with the traffic.

I enjoy my teammates and enjoy shooting. I like the league experience. It's basicly APA or nothin around here. There is a TAP 8 ball league in the area but all the teams are stable and I can't break in. If I can fix my mechanics and beat the cross eye dominance thing I'll be a 6 or a 7 myself. So I keep plugging. And enjoying myself.

BTW I'm a decent 9 ball player. I'm getting better all the time. I'm still learning the game (only 2 sessions so far). This session I have had some bad nights and ran into some hot shooters. So my win count is down. But I still hold up my end usually. I'll be a 4 shortly. It'll kill the team, but it's gonna happen. I wish 9ball would go to 25.

Mark Shuman

 

[justadub]

Jusadub I will respectfully disagree with you. I'm an APA 3. You as a captain do NOT want to put you're 6 or 7 up against me. My biggest problem is physical. I have been a dealership line mechanic for over 30 years. It has taken a toll on me. there are days shooting leagues I hurt at the table severely. So my mechanics suffer. On a good day I can hang with a solid 6. On a bad day I have difficulty with a 2.

Our captain looks to throw me at 6's and 7's. I win about 33% of the time. It doesn't bother me to shoot a 6 or 7. I practice on Sunday at my 9 ball home bar. I shoot no one lower than a 4 there. Abunch of 6's and 7's usually shows up. So being down means nothing to me. I give it 110% every game. One of 2 things can happen. I pick off the 6 0r 7 and we get games we otherwise would not have. Or I get jackhammered and we lose nothing. So feed me the 6's. I love it when they fail a runout and leave an open table. That is where I'm at my best. Love to watch their faces when I run a pile of balls and drop the 8. However all the teams in our league have learned this the hard way. Now I rarely get a high ranked shooter. I get 2's and 3's. And I struggle with the traffic.

I enjoy my teammates and enjoy shooting. I like the league experience. It's basicly APA or nothin around here. There is a TAP 8 ball league in the area but all the teams are stable and I can't break in. If I can fix my mechanics and beat the cross eye dominance thing I'll be a 6 or a 7 myself. So I keep plugging. And enjoying myself.

BTW I'm a decent 9 ball player. I'm getting better all the time. I'm still learning the game (only 2 sessions so far). This session I have had some bad nights and ran into some hot shooters. So my win count is down. But I still hold up my end usually. I'll be a 4 shortly. It'll kill the team, but it's gonna happen. I wish 9ball would go to 25.

Mark Shuman

Mark, that's very cool. You're not alone, I know many lower handicap players that like to take on the big boys. I did too, when I was a SL3, and still like to now that I'm a couple of levels higher. It is a challenge, and it makes you play your best.

But in my experience, we are in the minority. I believe a majority of lower level players wouldn't want to face SL6's and SL7's every week. And that's cool, too. It is supposed to be fun, and if a casual player isn't having fun getting his brains beat in, I can understand that. That's why I won't play our SL2 against the higher level players unless I have to. Our SL3, on the other hand, he likes it, and does well versus most anyone we play him against.

Hopefully you feel better so you can stay at the table longer without as much pain. Bets of luck to ya!

 

[Total_Chaos13]

Jusadub I will respectfully disagree with you. I'm an APA 3. You as a captain do NOT want to put you're 6 or 7 up against me. My biggest problem is physical. I have been a dealership line mechanic for over 30 years. It has taken a toll on me. there are days shooting leagues I hurt at the table severely. So my mechanics suffer. On a good day I can hang with a solid 6. On a bad day I have difficulty with a 2.

Our captain looks to throw me at 6's and 7's. I win about 33% of the time. It doesn't bother me to shoot a 6 or 7. I practice on Sunday at my 9 ball home bar. I shoot no one lower than a 4 there. Abunch of 6's and 7's usually shows up. So being down means nothing to me. I give it 110% every game. One of 2 things can happen. I pick off the 6 0r 7 and we get games we otherwise would not have. Or I get jackhammered and we lose nothing. So feed me the 6's. I love it when they fail a runout and leave an open table. That is where I'm at my best. Love to watch their faces when I run a pile of balls and drop the 8. However all the teams in our league have learned this the hard way. Now I rarely get a high ranked shooter. I get 2's and 3's. And I struggle with the traffic.

I enjoy my teammates and enjoy shooting. I like the league experience. It's basicly APA or nothin around here. There is a TAP 8 ball league in the area but all the teams are stable and I can't break in. If I can fix my mechanics and beat the cross eye dominance thing I'll be a 6 or a 7 myself. So I keep plugging. And enjoying myself.

BTW I'm a decent 9 ball player. I'm getting better all the time. I'm still learning the game (only 2 sessions so far). This session I have had some bad nights and ran into some hot shooters. So my win count is down. But I still hold up my end usually. I'll be a 4 shortly. It'll kill the team, but it's gonna happen. I wish 9ball would go to 25.

Mark Shuman

If your beating 6's and 7's at a 33% rate your not a 3 your a high 4 - low 5 and thats what my lo will tell you. Also if your a true 3 you shouldn't be running "a pile of balls" as you put it.

 

[ridinda9]

Our captain looks to throw me at 6's and 7's. I win about 33% of the time. Mark Shuman

Then Justadub certainly should throw his s/l6 at you - he'd have a 67% chance of winning , vs a 50% chance of winning shooting against an equal skill level !
17% is a strong handicap . . .

 

[Grilled Cheese]

If your beating 6's and 7's at a 33% rate your not a 3 your a high 4 - low 5 and thats what my lo will tell you.

Another testimony of how the APA handicapping system does not work.


Why wouldn't anyone be able to beat SL6 and SL7's 33% of the time? In fact, they should be beating SL6 and SL7 players 50% of the time! Regardless of what their handicap is.


Handicapping is about equalizing players of different skill levels. The best and most effective handicap systems bring win/loss ratio among players of different skill levels as close to 50% as possible. With 50% being perfection. When two players of different skills can match up, and it is truly unknown as to who will win since both have the same chance.

For example, a 70/30 win-loss represents an inferior handicapping system to one that has 52/48 win-loss.


So, according to this person, his L.O. feels and agrees that an SL3 should never beat an SL6 or SL7 even 33% of the time. That's too much by their standards. Fully contradicting the concept of handicapping.

 

[justadub]

Another testimony of how the APA handicapping system does not work.


Why wouldn't anyone be able to beat SL6 and SL7's 33% of the time? In fact, they should be beating SL6 and SL7 players 50% of the time! Regardless of what their handicap is.


Handicapping is about equalizing players of different skill levels. The best and most effective handicap systems bring win/loss ratio among players of different skill levels as close to 50% as possible. With 50% being perfection. When two players of different skills can match up, and it is truly unknown as to who will win since both have the same chance.

For example, a 70/30 win-loss represents an inferior handicapping system to one that has 52/48 win-loss.


So, according to this person, his L.O. feels and agrees that an SL3 should never beat an SL6 or SL7 even 33% of the time. That's too much by their standards. Fully contradicting the concept of handicapping.

I don't ever recall reading or hearing that the goal of the handicapping was to make every match completely equal, to a 50-50 chance. Since that is practically impossible, why even suggest it?

Pretty much anyone I've ever spoken with understands the basics of the matter, that the handicapping gives lesser players more of a chance then they would have otherwise.

You seem preoccupied with trying to make that into an absolute. Fortunately, many of us who play APA aren't so narrow-minded.

 

[phread59]

Chaos, you're quite right. But the biggest problem with me is the inconsistancy. Like I said on a good night I am a 5 no doubt. But on a bad night I am a weak 3. Like tonight, my fingers are literally burning in the joints. I'm typing with the 2 fingers that hurt the least. Holding a cue would be near torture. Aleve works somewhat so when it's this bad at least I can play. That's why I'm still a 3. I know I am on the bubble for a fact. I've been up to 4 and down all session. I have decent skills. I know how to get position. I know how to use english fairly effectively. But my weakness is the wretched body and overhitting. I have very powerful hands, wrists and forearms from my work. So speed control is a problem. I also am very left eye dominant. But cannot for the life of me get any kind of stroke from my left arm. I work at it almost every week. Trying to switch over. It is easier seeing cuts this way. I just can't stroke them in. I miss some cut shot's that I should not.

But with an open table and feeling good I'm a solid 5 maybe a weak 6. I just cannot seam to string too many good days together. Summer session is coming up. I am in less pain and less stiff then. I'll probably break the 4 barrier this next session.

One last thought for you guys. Going after a big gun and liking it is a mind set. You gotta want it. I do. Hell I shot Olympic style smallbore rifle. I got hammered by 13- 15 year old girls all the time. But in some ways I can hang with them. One of the young ladies in the last Olypics finished 4'th. Her name is Jamie Byerly. I loved pitting myself against them. So if you fear the higher ranks you are going to lose.

I just wish I could shoot as well as some of you guys. I'll keep trying and getting better

Mark Shuman

 

[ottersbro]

Another testimony of how the APA handicapping system does not work.


Why wouldn't anyone be able to beat SL6 and SL7's 33% of the time? In fact, they should be beating SL6 and SL7 players 50% of the time! Regardless of what their handicap is.


Handicapping is about equalizing players of different skill levels. The best and most effective handicap systems bring win/loss ratio among players of different skill levels as close to 50% as possible. With 50% being perfection. When two players of different skills can match up, and it is truly unknown as to who will win since both have the same chance.

For example, a 70/30 win-loss represents an inferior handicapping system to one that has 52/48 win-loss.


So, according to this person, his L.O. feels and agrees that an SL3 should never beat an SL6 or SL7 even 33% of the time. That's too much by their standards. Fully contradicting the concept of handicapping.

very well put :thumbup:

 

[lorider]

Another testimony of how the APA handicapping system does not work.


Why wouldn't anyone be able to beat SL6 and SL7's 33% of the time? In fact, they should be beating SL6 and SL7 players 50% of the time! Regardless of what their handicap is.


Handicapping is about equalizing players of different skill levels. The best and most effective handicap systems bring win/loss ratio among players of different skill levels as close to 50% as possible. With 50% being perfection. When two players of different skills can match up, and it is truly unknown as to who will win since both have the same chance.

For example, a 70/30 win-loss represents an inferior handicapping system to one that has 52/48 win-loss.


So, according to this person, his L.O. feels and agrees that an SL3 should never beat an SL6 or SL7 even 33% of the time. That's too much by their standards. Fully contradicting the concept of handicapping.

not another apa bashing thread again ! all of you guys that come on here b*tching jealous of the apas popularity or what ? i have said it before and i will say it again, no league is perfect.
hey bola, do you play in a league ? if so do the 2s in your league beat 7s 50% of the time ? if so let me know what league it is because i would sure love to join it.

i was a bar banger most of my life, started playing leagues 4 years ago. i have played bcapl, tap, apa and local money leagues. i enjoyed playing in all of them, why cant ya'll ? i dont care for some of the bcapl rules but im not going to start a thread bashing them.

i said in once before handicapping works if you have accurate scorekeeping and a good lo. i play apa double jeapordy . we have the lowest handicapped team in our division and after 2/3s of the session we are in 1st place in 9 ball and 3rd place in 8 ball. i am a 5 and our captain is a 4, every one else is a 3 or 2. every other team has a 6 or higher and yet we are very competitive. several teams have 2 or more 4s and 5s to go with ther 7. one team has 3 6s. so i say the handicap system works . btw we dont have sandbaggers or undercapped players on our team.

 

[Grilled Cheese]

I don't ever recall reading or hearing that the goal of the handicapping was to make every match completely equal

That's amusing, because the APA calls it the "Equalizer" system. :shrug:

The uniqueness of The Equalizer® handicap system is that it brings out the best in both the novice/beginning player and the expert should they compete in a match. With The Equalizer®, it's feasible for a beginner to have a nearly equal chance in a match against a more highly skilled player.

http://www.poolplayers.com/equalizer.html


I don't know about you, but "nearly equal" would be something close to 50%. As opposed to the bizarre idea of handicapping people have been mentioning in this thread, where even 33% wins against a better players is unacceptable.

You seem preoccupied with trying to make that into an absolute.

Your statement above is known as a strawman argument. You're arguing against something I never said, as if I said it.


It's obvious that perfection can never be achieved. However, handicapping is for the purpose of equalizing players of varying skill level. Somehow, in the F'ed up world of the APA and their players, this has been converted into handicapping is "just to give someone a chance" ...of which, the general (not just this thread) opinion is that a lower skilled player rarely should defeat a higher skilled player. And this is called handicapping. :lmao: What a joke.


That said, the IDEAL is to get as close to 50/50 as possible.


If SL3's beat SL7's only 20% of the time let's assume, that's not "nearly equal" as the APA Website claims.

 

[justadub]

OK. No more "straw man" arguments from me. I'll not bother to get into an argument with you. I've seen it before.

I play APA, and I'm comfortable with how the handicap system works.

(Of course it works better when people don't cheat the system. That can and will happen with any handicap system.)

Almost 300,000 people play APA. The system works well enough. Nothing is perfect, but this is successful. Successful enough.

 

[lorider]

if your an apa2 or3 you dont have a snowballs chance in heck to compete with a 7. now if the system is changed to make it an even game then it becomes fun and competitive for the players.

jmo

take it for what it is worth

does bca, tap, vnea or any other league for that matter give a 2 a snowballs chance in heck sa you put it a chance to beat a 7 ? if there is i think they would be outgrowing the apa.

 

[Grilled Cheese]

Fair enough. But what you like, what you're satisfied with, what 300,000 members of the APA think has nothing to do with whether or not the Equalizer is a decent handicapping system. My criticism is of the APA's handicapping system.

Does it handicap at all? Yes. An SL3 and SL7 doesn't play the same race. But at the same time, it's far from giving both players an equal chance of winning. No where near. Quite different from what the APA claims. It's token handicapping. Just enough to get people in the door.

 

[lorider]

I've asked this as a rhetorical question several times on this board in the past to the APA apologists and affiliated liars, to make the argument that the APA handicapping system does not work. If it did, there would be no need for such absurdity like the "23" rule.


The 23 rule is the APA's admission their Equalizer doesn't equalize.

when i saw this thread i went to the last page and started reading. i saw your post there and replied to it. now i started at the 1st page and read all the way thru it because i was interested in some of the posts who were being quoted. when i came to this post of yours i just had to reply to it.

i have also posted on several other apa bashing threads. not one time have i ever tried to get in a p*ssing contest on this board but i might make an exception for you. i always stated that i liked playing in all the leagues i have played in including apa and bca. usually the ones speaking in favor of apa were scott lee, league guy, apa operator , justadub and yours truly here among others that i cant remember off the top of my head. all of the above have always relayed their opinion in a civil and polite manner.

i dont think any of the above are apologists or liars and i know damn well im not. just because you dont agree with some ones opinion doesnt mean you have to resort to name calling. your mama didnt teach you manners or something ?

 

[lorider]

whether your opinion is pro or con about apa it is pretty much agreed upon they are responsible for bringing a lot of new people to our sport. they should be commended for that , not bashed. i am pro apa but agree that "equalizer" is the wrong name for a handicap system. it was stated earlier that a 2 does not have a chance vs a 7 in apa. all i can say about that is if any of you apa bashers play in a league that does give a 2 a chance like that let me know, i will drop apa like a hot potato and join yours.

as for the 23 rule , i dont understand what all the fuss over 2 points is about. on one of my apa teams our best 5 players only total up to 18 and we are in 1st place in 9 ball and 3rd in 8 ball. that proves to me the handicap system works.

back when bcapl was in my area my poolhall started up a money league under the bcapl format. i got a bunch of my friends together and we joined. when i turned in my roster the lo said damn buddy how are you going to field a 25 limit. i said i was not worried about it that we would outrun the points we had to give up. the lowest handicap we could field was 34 and we always came in 1st or 2nd. that goes to show that no matter what league you are in there are ways to exploit the handicap system.

 

[justadub]

Fair enough. But what you like, what you're satisfied with, what 300,000 members of the APA think has nothing to do with whether or not the Equalizer is a decent handicapping system. My criticism is of the APA's handicapping system.

Does it handicap at all? Yes. An SL3 and SL7 doesn't play the same race. But at the same time, it's far from giving both players an equal chance of winning. No where near. Quite different from what the APA claims. It's token handicapping. Just enough to get people in the door.

I said I wasn't gonna argue with you any more, but after reading it again, what the hell.

1) The first sentence in your first post in this thread was an ad-hominem statement (attack the arguer instead of the argument) calling those who would disagree with you apologists and affiliated liars. I truly appreciate you calling me a liar. Apologist is closer (yet not "equal" as a description) and I do tire of being called names. Since you appear to have a high sense of self-worth in all your posts here, you might understand that being called a liar doesn't exactly sit well with most folks. Would you kindly show actual proof that I am lying?

2) The word "feasible" means "possible" in the Equalizer statement on the APA website. Yes, it is possible for a 2 to have a nearly equal chance against a 7. Not probable, but possible, which is why it would raise the eyebrow of an APA LO. Basically, you're using semantics to twist the league wording, and it's getting tiresome.

Once you come to the point where the wording says "nearly" equal, there are no absolutes. You keep insisting there has to be one. You keep mentioning a 50-50 chance. In my eyes, a rank beginner only having to win 2 games before an extremely experienced player has to win 7 is a lot more equal than what anyone else has offered. One slight mistake by the SL7, after he's cleared the table, and the SL2 gets a game. One freak accident slopping the 8 in out of turn, and the SL2 gets the match. If they can make any balls at all, it makes the SL7 really have to work, probably more so than if he was playing a SL4. Is it absolutely "equal" in all respects, no. For the purposes of a league that has to finish after 4-5 hours of play, squeezing in 5 matches, that's pretty close to equal. Or.... "nearly equal".

3) What is your solution. You have none, and offer none. All you want to do is bash. You have a bullying issue, where its cool to gang up on (bash) the entity that everyone else bullys (bashes). You can't be "cool" and like the APA, not here. It's fun and sport to bash the APA here on AZB, and the term APA is used as a derogative term regularly in posts here. See Point Number 1 above.

When you come up with a system that makes everyone absolutely "equal" let us know. It would be helpful to the several hundred thousand people playing all the leagues out there across this country.

 

[Cory in DC]

When you come up with a system that makes everyone absolutely "equal" let us know. It would be helpful to the several hundred thousand people playing all the leagues out there across this country.

Here's the system: Walk up to the table, flip a coin, call it in the air, record the match outcome and move on to the match.

Sounds pretty boring, doesn't it? But that's what a true 50-50 league would be.

I think it's a feature, not a shortcoming, to even out the odds a bit and give the weaker player a better (not equal) chance, without removing all of the better player's edge.

 

[lorider]

Here's the system: Walk up to the table, flip a coin, call it in the air, record the match outcome and move on to the match.

Sounds pretty boring, doesn't it? But that's what a true 50-50 league would be.

I think it's a feature, not a shortcoming, to even out the odds a bit and give the weaker player a better (not equal) chance, without removing all of the better player's edge.

very well said. i asked the apa bashers in an earlier post to name one league that gives a2 a better chance to beat a7 than the apa does. havent got a reply yet, wonder why ? i also used my team as an example of how fair the handicapping is. we have the lowest handicap in our division yet we are in 1st place in 9 ball and 3rd in 8 ball.below is tonights results.

9 ball

i am a 4 and beat an 8

our 2 beat a 4

our 3 beat a 3

our 3 beat a 4

our 5 beat a3

8 ball

i am a 5 and lost to a 4, thats a whole story in itself.

our 3 beat a 3

our 3 beat a 6

our 4 lost to a 3

our 4 beat a 7

in 10 matches we had 5 weaker players beat their stronger players

we had 2 wins playing even

we had 1 win with our stronger vs their weaker.

they had 2 wins with their weaker vs our stronger.

7 out of 10 were won by a weaker player, 2 played even and 1 was won by a stronger player.

seems like a pretty fair system to me.

 

[JesseAllred]

pool being one of the only games in the world where you may not get the chance to compete because of a runout makes it nearly impossible to handicap for a fair game. Of course you can handicap it and play bowlliards or modify the game so there are equal innings at the table, but the way the game is played in leagues and tournaments the idea of an equal chance is a fantasy.

I've gambled with people playing 8ball and 9ball giving a handicap when they lose 70 games in a row before quitting, how do you put a percentage on their chances of winning or even begin to say that a handicap makes a large statistical difference. The nature of the game being one-sided messes up the entire idea of making the game fair in any way for the lesser player.

 

[GrasshopperOO7]

I don't think the handicap system works, for an example we had our legit sl4 play a sl6, our 4 won the match, it's the way he won the 6 scratched on the 8, the 4 makes the 8 on the break ( pure luck), next game same thing the 6 scratched on the 8 once again so our 4 wins next week he's a 5. How is that when he won out of pure luck. They need to work on the system or find a new one.