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What's the secret of the grip
- Thread starter bigskyblue
- Start date
Simple, release just prior to contact.
What do you think will happen......Think about how much a cue ball weighs compared to a cue stick.
What do you think will happen......Think about how much a cue ball weighs compared to a cue stick.
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Fran, I've found the same thing. If I try to maintain my normally light grip during power shots, I'll instinctively grab the cue. Firming my grip up all but eliminates this tendency for me.
Can the same shot be executed with either grip pressure? Absolutely. But not as effectively for me.
- Andy
Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2
Anyone who plays with their standardized routine for thousands and millions of shots will find ways to play past any fundamentals situation.
But if you haven't reached the point of setting some fundamentals in stone, then the looser grip is better. Even at break speeds, the relaxed grip gives you more predictable results.
When you grab the stick with fierce strength, you have also tightened your upper arm muscles. This introduces additional tensions in your stroke, which, of course, also throws off the precision you have practiced so hard to control.
That doesn't mean to say that a firm grip is to be totally avoided. Sometimes you need a firm stab shot, such as for semi-masses. (You will need to practice those shots to develop the necessary precision that makes them trustworthy.)
But if you haven't reached the point of setting some fundamentals in stone, then the looser grip is better. Even at break speeds, the relaxed grip gives you more predictable results.
When you grab the stick with fierce strength, you have also tightened your upper arm muscles. This introduces additional tensions in your stroke, which, of course, also throws off the precision you have practiced so hard to control.
That doesn't mean to say that a firm grip is to be totally avoided. Sometimes you need a firm stab shot, such as for semi-masses. (You will need to practice those shots to develop the necessary precision that makes them trustworthy.)
write your name in the air with the tip to feel what it's like to control the tip....
You won't be able to tell what grip pressure a player is using by watching. People have said I look like I'm holding the cue loose, and I'm definitely holding it firm. Buddy and Earl are the same way and your grip should change in pressure depending on the upcoming shot.
You MUST be able to control the cue, and it may be a good "drill" to hold your cue up and write your name in the air with the tip to feel what it's like to control the tip.....you play the game with the tip, not the cue.
You won't be able to tell what grip pressure a player is using by watching. People have said I look like I'm holding the cue loose, and I'm definitely holding it firm. Buddy and Earl are the same way and your grip should change in pressure depending on the upcoming shot.
You MUST be able to control the cue, and it may be a good "drill" to hold your cue up and write your name in the air with the tip to feel what it's like to control the tip.....you play the game with the tip, not the cue.
+1 This is very good advice...I've been using a slightly firmer grip for about 2 years now, with great success. I can do everything with a cue that I could with a loose grip, but now I feel the shot better and don't "snatch" the cue or roll my wrist, putting unwanted lateral movement in the stroke. To each his/her own, but I know what works for me!
I think I should be able to do just that. Thanks for the tip...:wink:
Not sure if I even feel a change in my grip pressure even if it might be there. I have never given this any conscious thought in practice...
The only time I feel grip pressure is perhaps when I'm under pressure in a competitive match. And then when I start to think about it, the trouble starts...
I seek consistency in all facets of my game, and grip pressure is no exception.
I understand and have played under tremendous pressure many times. This is another reason to go ahead and grip firmer normally because under pressure - you will have a tenancy to "tighten up" throughout your body, and of course your hand too.
I seek consistency in all facets of my game, grip pressure and technique is no exception. I prefer an athletic "tennis grip" from playing golf, tennis and pool as I was growing up, my grip is the same with all three games. 'The Game is the Teacher' www.cjwiley.com
I think I should be able to do just that. Thanks for the tip...:wink:
Not sure if I even feel a change in my grip pressure even if it might be there. I have never given this any conscious thought in practice...
The only time I feel grip pressure is perhaps when I'm under pressure in a competitive match. And then when I start to think about it, the trouble starts...
I understand and have played under tremendous pressure many times. This is another reason to go ahead and grip firmer normally because under pressure - you will have a tenancy to "tighten up" throughout your body, and of course your hand too.
I seek consistency in all facets of my game, grip pressure and technique is no exception. I prefer an athletic "tennis grip" from playing golf, tennis and pool as I was growing up, my grip is the same with all three games. 'The Game is the Teacher' www.cjwiley.com
Tennis and pool
Ah, the good old continental tennis grip. Great for volleys...I used to practice tennis for hours daily back in my elementary school days. Nowadays I play very rarely, but each time I get to the court I pick up the strokes quickly (movement is another matter though). Most likely this is because I was taught right and consistent fundamentals from an early age.
Two games are similar on many levels. Love the "aim" at tennis...just follow the yellow "cue ball" with your eyes...
Ah, the good old continental tennis grip. Great for volleys...I used to practice tennis for hours daily back in my elementary school days. Nowadays I play very rarely, but each time I get to the court I pick up the strokes quickly (movement is another matter though). Most likely this is because I was taught right and consistent fundamentals from an early age.
Two games are similar on many levels. Love the "aim" at tennis...just follow the yellow "cue ball" with your eyes...
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The Grip
The vital performance of the game depends on the proper grip of a cue.
The important thing is to avoid gripping the cue tightly as it denies the possibility of delivering a proper hit.The primary areas like hand,wrist,shoulder,elbows,arms of the body should be relaxed.
The vital performance of the game depends on the proper grip of a cue.
The important thing is to avoid gripping the cue tightly as it denies the possibility of delivering a proper hit.The primary areas like hand,wrist,shoulder,elbows,arms of the body should be relaxed.
I used to grip the cue so tight I wore grips out, I once wore a hole in a rubber one
It depends on your style of play. I used to grip the cue so tight I wore grips out, one was made of rubber and in three months I wore a hole through it. I don't grip it quite as tight these days, however, if I was gambling high every day I would probably revert back to more grip pressure - to match the gambling pressure. It's better to match what you will naturally feel than try to "fight against the grain". imho
Earl Stickland is another player that uses a "death grip" (his words), I've noticed that the more athletic players many times use a firmer grip, especially if they've played tennis at an early age.
I'm an advocate of hitting the cue ball very precisely with my hand motion, therefore I use more of my forearm/wrist/fingers and move my wrist the same as golf, and tennis, just a miniature version.
I don't care what I'm doing with my arm, my focus is on extending the tip straight through the cue ball with an accelerating wrist/finger motion. I use a hammer and nails to duplicate the wrist and hand motion in my stroke to generate the same type force to the cue ball as a hammer generates to a nail.
How players hold their cue is a personal preference, like holding a writing pen. Controlling the tip should be the goal in both. If you have an aggressive, attacking style of play I wouldn't think you would want a loose grip, and likewise if you are a gentle, finesse type person I would think your grip would also be "gentle". "To each their own," just make sure you control the cue, so you get maximum feedback from the tip/cue ball to your hand/fingers. 'The Game is the Teacher'
It depends on your style of play. I used to grip the cue so tight I wore grips out, one was made of rubber and in three months I wore a hole through it. I don't grip it quite as tight these days, however, if I was gambling high every day I would probably revert back to more grip pressure - to match the gambling pressure. It's better to match what you will naturally feel than try to "fight against the grain". imho
Earl Stickland is another player that uses a "death grip" (his words), I've noticed that the more athletic players many times use a firmer grip, especially if they've played tennis at an early age.
I'm an advocate of hitting the cue ball very precisely with my hand motion, therefore I use more of my forearm/wrist/fingers and move my wrist the same as golf, and tennis, just a miniature version.
I don't care what I'm doing with my arm, my focus is on extending the tip straight through the cue ball with an accelerating wrist/finger motion. I use a hammer and nails to duplicate the wrist and hand motion in my stroke to generate the same type force to the cue ball as a hammer generates to a nail.
How players hold their cue is a personal preference, like holding a writing pen. Controlling the tip should be the goal in both. If you have an aggressive, attacking style of play I wouldn't think you would want a loose grip, and likewise if you are a gentle, finesse type person I would think your grip would also be "gentle". "To each their own," just make sure you control the cue, so you get maximum feedback from the tip/cue ball to your hand/fingers. 'The Game is the Teacher'
Probably the "secret" of the grip is that there's more than one grip you use every time you play. Your main grip can be firm or loosey-goosey. If you're rolling the cue ball and you're hitting where you aim, it doesn't matter. When you have to do something more than go from point A to point B, you most likely will change your grip.
I hold the cue about a medium grip when I practice stroke. If I punch a ball or apply a draw/follow stroke, I firm up the grip just as I strike the cue ball. I call it a "snatch" or gripping of the cue to impart maximum speed and control at a specific point of my stroke.
I move around the table from shot to shot tightening and loosening my grip for the different strokes. Close quarters call for firmer grips. 9 foot draw shots mean a more relaxed grip with a firm gripping action as I contact the cue ball to impart the juice.
One thing I've worked with lately was suggested by Mr. CJ on these forums. I slightly turn my wrist to lock it in the direction of the stroke. At first it restricted my wrist movement, but I overcame this change by allowing my fingers to be incorporated into the stroke. I achieved less incorrect side to side movement of my wrist and less unwanted english on stroke shots. Not really a secret...just less moving parts kind of thing.
Best,
Mike
The forearms, wrists and fingers can generate a lot of power with ease
I've experimented with several types of grips and "picked the brains" of some of the greatest players like Earl, Johnny, and Buddy about their grips and there philosophy on the subject. Controlling the cue is what's essential and most pros I've talked to change pressure (slightly) according to the shot, although they do have a favorite grip pressure that they try to use most often.
The think I learned from playing other sports is how the wrists move to create accuracy and precision without forfeiting power. I have an easy time working with golfers, tennis players and people that's hammered a lot of nails. I was the son of a carpenter and grew up hammering nails, as was Earl Strickland (he did a lot of roofing/shingles).
The forearms, wrists and fingers can generate a lot of power with ease using a hammer, axe, golf club, pool cue, and/or filipino fighting sticks..
...training with swords, sticks and staffs will really accelerate the learning when it comes to generating effortless power with the hands, wrists, and fingers IN ADDITION to the motion of the arm and forearm.
The "flick of the wrist" provides acceleration and accuracy, like the champion dart throwers demonstrate. The absolute quickest way to improve your game two or possible three levels in a few weeks comes from stance and stroke training. These two areas can be improved in most players I've seen, with the exception of the bone fide Champion players.
When the stance is correct and the motion of the grip is improved it's creates a chain of body reactions that force the player to improve immediately - the game gets that much easier to play when the physical part is handled correctly. 'The Game is the Teacher'
I've experimented with several types of grips and "picked the brains" of some of the greatest players like Earl, Johnny, and Buddy about their grips and there philosophy on the subject. Controlling the cue is what's essential and most pros I've talked to change pressure (slightly) according to the shot, although they do have a favorite grip pressure that they try to use most often.
The think I learned from playing other sports is how the wrists move to create accuracy and precision without forfeiting power. I have an easy time working with golfers, tennis players and people that's hammered a lot of nails. I was the son of a carpenter and grew up hammering nails, as was Earl Strickland (he did a lot of roofing/shingles).
The forearms, wrists and fingers can generate a lot of power with ease using a hammer, axe, golf club, pool cue, and/or filipino fighting sticks..
The "flick of the wrist" provides acceleration and accuracy, like the champion dart throwers demonstrate. The absolute quickest way to improve your game two or possible three levels in a few weeks comes from stance and stroke training. These two areas can be improved in most players I've seen, with the exception of the bone fide Champion players.
When the stance is correct and the motion of the grip is improved it's creates a chain of body reactions that force the player to improve immediately - the game gets that much easier to play when the physical part is handled correctly. 'The Game is the Teacher'
I've experimented with several types of grips and "picked the brains" of some of the greatest players like Earl, Johnny, and Buddy about their grips and there philosophy on the subject. Controlling the cue is what's essential and most pros I've talked to change pressure (slightly) according to the shot, although they do have a favorite grip pressure that they try to use most often.
The think I learned from playing other sports is how the wrists move to create accuracy and precision without forfeiting power. I have an easy time working with golfers, tennis players and people that's hammered a lot of nails. I was the son of a carpenter and grew up hammering nails, as was Earl Strickland (he did a lot of roofing/shingles).
The forearms, wrists and fingers can generate a lot of power with ease using a hammer, axe, golf club, pool cue, and/or filipino fighting sticks.....training with swords, sticks and staffs will really accelerate the learning when it comes to generating effortless power with the hands, wrists, and fingers IN ADDITION to the motion of the arm and forearm.
The "flick of the wrist" provides acceleration and accuracy, like the champion dart throwers demonstrate. The absolute quickest way to improve your game two or possible three levels in a few weeks comes from stance and stroke training. These two areas can be improved in most players I've seen, with the exception of the bone fide Champion players.
When the stance is correct and the motion of the grip is improved it's creates a chain of body reactions that force the player to improve immediately - the game gets that much easier to play when the physical part is handled correctly. 'The Game is the Teacher'
Excellent post!
Stan Shuffett
Yes, great post. And now we know why the Filipinos are so damn good - it's all that stick fighting!!!
Scott
Scott
CJ, I studied stick and knife fighting 25 years ago from a guy who learned from Leo Gage in the Philippines. Gage taught his family's form of Kali known as Pekiti-Tirsia Kali. Pekita-Tirsia is now the official fighting form taught to police and military in the Philippines.
Here is a real nice clip of two advanced level practitioners of Pekiti-Tirsia engaged in a full-speed practice drill session. In particular, note the upward thrust that the guy on the right (camo pants) issues at 2:38.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=fvwp&v=OLlo14jXYY8
This looks to me to be extremely similar to the motion you use in your pool stroke. It's is only a subtle downturn of the wrist, but it aligns the bones in the hands and fingers to the bones in the forearm is a very powerful way. The downturn motion is entirely in the wrist. You feel a hammer blow in it, I feel a fly rod forward cast, but regardless, the wrist motion is pretty much the same IMO.
I used to have a buddy hold his body against my heavy bag while I executed this move to various spots on the bag. He said he could feel the focused impact of the stick all the way through the bag. A stroke that is modeled after this motion will definitely "get thorough the ball" with no problem.
It never occurred to me to use this motion in pool as I was always a loose-wrist cradle kind of guy with a pool cue, but after I started watching you play on YouTube, I changed to this more athletic grip and it has made some pretty positive improvements in my stroke. It allows me to really feel the hit in my fingers. I now see that many (but not all) top cueists use this kind of motion or a variation of it to some degree in their stoke.
"The Sifu is the Teacher" :wink:
Perception can be misleading. In Thorsten's case, what "looks like" a "ball of clenched knuckles" (or, firm death grip) is actually not what it appears. In Thorsten's case, while his thumb is tucked over his index finger in "fist-like" fashion, his actual grip (contact) on the cue is surprisingly light. Having viewed Thorsten's grip close-up (i.e. when he would try his hand at the SBE 14.1 Challenge, the booth of which I help man and score-keep), I can tell you that Thorsten's grip is not much different than Buddy Hall's grip, which also looks like he's fisting the cue, but is actually just allowing gravity to rest the cue upon the fleshy pads of his hands.
In other words, "what you see" isn't what you think. While it looks like Thorsten Hohmann (and Buddy Hall) grip technique "looks like" a ball of clenched knuckles, it isn't. It just so happens the cue is softly cradled in that "cage" formed by the thumb and fingers, resting upon the fleshy pads of the hands. I got to see this close-up. The only thing different from Thorsten's (Buddy's) grip from X.T. Pan, is that Thorsten's hand is a semi-rigid "cage" around the cue (but with the cue resting in there), whereas X.T. Pan's grip allows the fingers to move about and freely reposition through the cycle of the stroke.
One should try both. Indeed, in my pool-playing life experience, I've tried all manner of grips (too numerous to enumerate here), and the experience is golden. I'd finally settled on what looks to many like a "fist o' knuckles" (cage) grip that is actually very lightly cradling the cue on the soft pads of my hands. One could argue this is because I play 14.1 and one pocket as my main games of choice. I don't know if I agree with that. I just find that I get a lot more sensory feedback from the cue if I have stable non-changing/consistent contact with the pads of my hand, rather than an ever-changing-grip-through-the-cycle-of-the-stroke as in X.T. Pan's.
Everyone's mileage may vary -- the key is to make the trip in the first place.
-Sean
I've experimented with several types of grips and "picked the brains" of some of the greatest players like Earl, Johnny, and Buddy about their grips and there philosophy on the subject. Controlling the cue is what's essential and most pros I've talked to change pressure (slightly) according to the shot, although they do have a favorite grip pressure that they try to use most often.
The think I learned from playing other sports is how the wrists move to create accuracy and precision without forfeiting power. I have an easy time working with golfers, tennis players and people that's hammered a lot of nails. I was the son of a carpenter and grew up hammering nails, as was Earl Strickland (he did a lot of roofing/shingles).
The forearms, wrists and fingers can generate a lot of power with ease using a hammer, axe, golf club, pool cue, and/or filipino fighting sticks.....training with swords, sticks and staffs will really accelerate the learning when it comes to generating effortless power with the hands, wrists, and fingers IN ADDITION to the motion of the arm and forearm.
The "flick of the wrist" provides acceleration and accuracy, like the champion dart throwers demonstrate. The absolute quickest way to improve your game two or possible three levels in a few weeks comes from stance and stroke training. These two areas can be improved in most players I've seen, with the exception of the bone fide Champion players.
When the stance is correct and the motion of the grip is improved it's creates a chain of body reactions that force the player to improve immediately - the game gets that much easier to play when the physical part is handled correctly. 'The Game is the Teacher'
CJ: a pleasure to read this fantastic posting! Excellent writing- thx for sharing this opinoin and expirience.
lg from overseas,
Ingo