Simonis Std Green 860 -- their website Fails so I ask the experts

Defense rests your honor,no further questions...

realkingcobra said:

John, I'll tell you what. When I get done with this seminar, and I get up to the NY, NJ, MD area, I'll make it a point to spend some one on one time with you I'm pretty sure that with some time spent with you, showing you what I do, I'll be able to at least get you to understand what I'm doing and why...OK?

Glen

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I may need to make a trip for that one....
Someone is going to have to referee and call rounds!lol

I'm going to try out some of OTLB's ideas at the house and see what results I can get.
I haven't tried them,because I've had no reason to, but just for arguments sake, I'll go through the posts,see what has the most arguments and discussion, and see how it turns out.
I've tried to learn from every mechanic I've ever encountered -some were beyond worthless,and some were creative,but at least I got around enough to see the difference.
I've found little things from alot of them that were different,and I've utilized the best ideas and logic to improve what I've done.
I've gone out with Glen,and have been trying his way on everything lately,so now what I do is improved upon what I've done.
If I find something out of all OTLBs ideas that works better,or is an improvement,then I'll add that to the abilities list.
What doesn't work for me,I just won't do again.
Simple.
I already know how tight I can stretch Simonis, and have my method down pat, so I'll know real quick if I can gotighter or not.
My slate seams are already perfect with nothing sealing them,so add another step.
Credibility is the best form of advertisement any of us have,especially with such widespread use of the internet.
Seeing is believing,and if your customers see that the work they have received in the past from others is inferior,they will continue to help your business once they've seen it done right by you.
Simply put-put up or shut up,your customers and their friends are reading this soap opera and drawing their own conclusions. Nobody wins an internet shouting match.
My conclusion?
Let you know in a couple of days with video/pics ofhow MY table turned out-

But if we're going to get organized,have something set in place for certification and reputation, then I don't see how public displays of mutual animosity are benficial.
It's like the AKC vs. the UKC around here for those dog show people...
BUT, if there is nothing to staple/tck to,then obviously,the only way to go is glue.
And Glen wins that round hands down.
I can't even dispute that one.
yet...lol

This is more fun then burnt popcorn and soogy cereal in the morning. Can we get some service over here the water winkled my wool suit and the tack strip left holes in my pants when i tried to use them as a inside the pants belt for that stealth look stream line and easy to chage on the fly. and the pocket inserts didnt keep my wallet from falling out either when I did cart wheels.

Craig

n10spool said:

This is more fun then burnt popcorn and soogy cereal in the morning. Can we get some service over here the water winkled my wool suit and the tack strip left holes in my pants when i tried to use them as a inside the pants belt for that stealth look stream line and easy to chage on the fly. and the pocket inserts didnt keep my wallet from falling out either when I did cart wheels.

Craig

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:rotflmao1::rotflmao1::rotflmao1::rotflmao1::rotflmao1:
And that glue is a Sum***** trying to get your shirt untucked!

OTLB said:

As usual I tend to get excited and of course it does get the better of me. Not withstanding some valid points made to me there are essentially no new ides in this forum. When someone introduces a new idea in the forum it shouldn't be attacked with sarcastic remarks. Once one person starts with them, especially someone who is recognized in the forum an onslaught is continued. The decorum of the forum certainly wasn't elevated with my performance yesterday. For that I am sorry. For evrything else I am NOT.

People want to say that they HATE me when they have never met me is fine. Thats not how I am or how I think most of you are. Leave me alone and I will not feel as if I have to comeback with a bunch of nonsense. Sometimes I feel that nonsense is the only way to communicate with some of the people in here.

I am bullheaded, stubborn, and an asshole at times as many other things. Probably one of the biggest assholes you could ever meet if you push me.

Thing is I know who I am. You want to keep flaming me, then I will be an asshole. For all the mechs in here that have called me on the phone, emailed me etc. Well they don't think I am an asshole becasue they understand that you get what you serve.

Lets just see one thing shall we. If we are all nice to each other there wouldn't be any problems would there. I will be nice I promise, can everyone else be?

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John, I have no problem with you buddy, but you do come across extremely aggressive and determined at times with some of your ideas. I've been a mechanic for 26yrs, half my life. I've seen things that you'll probably never run into. I've seen things that work, and things that I just plain ass couldn't understand why they were done. Let me give you a good example. At Pro-Tyme Billiards in Alsip, where this seminar is taking place, I worked on one of the GC3's there a year or so ago. When I took the table apart and got a look at the slates, it was clear to me that at some point in time, "this" table must have had cushions that were to high. Now, instead of correcting the problem and lowering the cushions correctly, the person decided to...."belt sand" the first 3 1/2" of the outer edges of the slate at a downward angle all the way around the perimeter of the slates where the rails sit, in order to raise the nose of the cushions! Now, the question I have for you John, is that by doing what this person did, yes...the nose of the cushions are at the correct height now, but does that make what this mechanic did correct? And if you were this person, would you show others your new found idea of how to change cushion height? This is what I mean. I'm not saying that your ideas are wrong John, what I am saying, and what I've been saying all along is that some of your ideas are way out in left field so to speak. I'm more concerned with the masses that work as mechanics than I am about maybe 2-3 out of a 100. My job, and I hired myself to do this, is to take mechanics by the masses, and try and show them something that works on a daily basis...as a principle, not as a requirement, on how to work on pool tables across the board, no matter what kind of table they're working on.

Your tack strip idea is not new, maybe to you it is, but it's not a new idea. I tried them over 20yrs ago, as I know others on this forum have, but passed on the idea because they wouldn't work on all the different kinds of tables out here. I was more interested in coming up with something that was a "fit all" kind of way of recovering pool tables, thus my gluing method, as it don't matter what kind of table you're dealing with, it works.

Ernesto a long time ago, because of the bad cushions Brunswick put out, figured out how to install K66 cushions on a K55 profile sub-rail, and made it work. But, even though it's made to work installing K66 cushions on Brunswick tables, I don't agree on having to remove the top 1/8" of the sub-rail at a downward angle to make up for having to mount the K66 cushions an 1/8" lower. To me, this idea...even though he seems to think it works, is wrong, because it takes away from being able to go back to K55 cushions should someone want to change back, the sub-rails have been modified, and without a lot of work being done to restore the sub-rails, the owner of the table(s)...are screwed. So now, that's another mechanic that could think outside of the box as you like to put it, but does that make his idea right? To me, no it don't, because I feel like at that point in time, more pressure should have been put on Brunswick to correct their cushion problems, not pass the problem on to the table owner by creating new conditions that may have to be dealt with at a later date.

John, not all ideas are good, not all ideas are bad. But a person has to pick and choose which ideas make the most sense, and make use of them, and pass over on the ones that seem way far fetched.

And John, if my way of doing things were wrong, I wouldn't have influenced an entire factory to change the way they were doing things in the past....now would I? Believe me, Greg Sullivan, the owner of Diamond back in 2000 was dead against installing bed cloths with glue, so much so that all the one piece slates at that time produced were backed with 3/4" MDF so the cloth could be stapled on. One slate John, that's all it took, just me installing the cloth on one slate with my gluing system is all it took to turn Greg around and drop the stapling of the bed cloths. Now today, every new table built by Diamond, is built to have the cloth glued to the slates, why? Diamond had a Fox & Hounds with 16 Diamonds in it, in which the backer boards were stapled out completely, do you think they replaced the backer boards first, then recovered the tables? Nope, they switched to gluing the bed cloths down, and completed recovering the tables, just like nothing was wrong, and will continue to do so today. Imagine how many tack strips would have to be brought to modify 16 tables John vs 3 quarts of glue!

So, once again, I'm not saying your ideas are wrong, it's just that some of them just really don't make any sense in todays market place by ALL mechanics as a whole.

The problem with todays mechanics is that there is no basic foundation when it comes to recovering pool tables, by that I mean that for the most part, 20 mechanics are going to get 20 tables recovered, but none of the 20 tables are going to be done the same. They may all look the same when they're done, but they're going to be done 20 different ways.

I want to see a customer that is happy with the last job done, be able to get the same job done if they can't get a hold of the same mechanic they had the last time, because the new mechanic is trained to do the SAME work, because the table owner called a CERTIFIED mechanic from OUR list of CERTIFIED mechanics and was given the number to another mechanic in the area that could do the SAME work.

Finding a good mechanic shouldn't have to be like playing Russian roulette, pull the trigger and see what happens, when only one bullet out of 6 is taken out!

Glen

OTLB said:

well now, thats the kind of talk I like. I know many of my ideas do NOT work on all tables etc and some of(most of) do NOT but as you mentioned some of my methods(many of which I haven't shared) do.

I do respect you and what your doing to establish common ground. Keep up the good work!

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Now that we understand each other John, we can stop all this arguing back and forth.

I believe its the job of slate manufactures to manufacture the slates that go on all pool tables! I believe its the table manufactures job to manufacture the pool tables and all the compo nits thereof they build and sell. I believe its the job of the cloth manufactures to produce the cloth they sell for all the different kinds of tables they go on.

But, I also believe its up to "US" mechanics to determine how all of these products go together, as "WE" are the ones that do this kind of work, because we are the "last" ones to put our hands on "their" products. I don't believe it's up to any of the above mentioned to tell us how to do our job, but it's OUR job to inform THEM of theirs! If they try to produce a product that is not up to our expectations as mechanic, I feel it's our job to inform them of the lack of quality of THEIR products and have them do something about it, and not for us to shut up and just give the final screwing to the customer....just because THEY say so.

The problem in this industry, is that they have all gotten together as a whole, and just compete with each other for THEIR share of the market place...like we don't even exist, yet without us....they have nothing. The problem is...that we don't have a voice....yet! But when we do, we WILL be heard, and WE will become something then, but until then....we have to start somewhere in order to get to that level...and that's what I'm doing....starting somewhere!

Glen

realkingcobra said:

Now that we understand each other John, we can stop all this arguing back and forth.
Glen

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OTLB said:

I agree 100% and am pleased that there is someone(you) making an effort in this regard. If I can help, I will( did I just say that) yeap. So although you and I are not on the same page all the time, we are reading from the same book. My chapter may NOT be included in any instructional manual but as much as I can come off as rough I also have polish when appropriate.

I can't help the fact that I like to do things different. This is my nature, regardless it being pool, factories, etc. Really just trying to make everything a bit better. With me, its like a personal challenge to imrove things or create and I just can't help it.

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Glad to see this...First a black president and now you two getting along...They said neither would happen in my lifetime...See what open minds can achieve!

PoolTable911 said:

Glad to see this...First a black president and now you two getting along...They said neither would happen in my lifetime...See what open minds can achieve!

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You're bad I'll deal with your ass at the seminar

Glen

LCCS said:

Talk to the hand because the face is not listening. LOL

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You got it all wrong " it's talk to the finger because your not worthy of the hand".

all in good taste

Nice to see everyone talking again. were all experts in one way or another time to share grow and learn to better the industry..

Craig