Go Back   AzBilliards.com > Main Category > 14.1 Pool
Reload this Page Straight Pool Statistics
Reply
Page 1 of 2 1 2
 
Share Thread Tools Rate Thread
Straight Pool Statistics
Old
  (#1)
justnum
AzB Silver Member
justnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 9,537
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Dec 2005
   
Straight Pool Statistics - 06-27-2019, 12:53 PM

In a match of 14.1 calculating average balls per inning.

During the opening break
Player A fouls, Player B requests rerack and break
Player A fouls again Player B requests rerack and break

Do those first two turns count towards Players B average balls pocketed during the match? If they do count, should they count as safes or zero balls pocketed.

Which brings me to my next question, should playing a safe be part of the calculations of average balls run per inning?

The alternative is to create an average for fouls per inning.

I couldn't find a Olympic ready standard definition for these calculations on the WCBS on WPA websites.

I am doing this because I want to help other people player better pool against players. Not compete against a super challenging high run. Plus I am making a website to help track 141 statistics for myself mostly.

Based on my data playing fouls can be better then leaving an easy run on the table.
  
Reply With Quote

Old
  (#2)
stevekur1
The "COMMISH"
stevekur1 has a reputation beyond reputestevekur1 has a reputation beyond reputestevekur1 has a reputation beyond reputestevekur1 has a reputation beyond reputestevekur1 has a reputation beyond reputestevekur1 has a reputation beyond reputestevekur1 has a reputation beyond reputestevekur1 has a reputation beyond reputestevekur1 has a reputation beyond reputestevekur1 has a reputation beyond reputestevekur1 has a reputation beyond repute
 
stevekur1's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 5,332
vCash: 4700
iTrader: 32 / 100%
Blog Entries: 1
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Long Island, NY
   
06-27-2019, 01:22 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by justnum View Post
In a match of 14.1 calculating average balls per inning.

During the opening break
Player A fouls, Player B requests rerack and break
Player A fouls again Player B requests rerack and break

Do those first two turns count towards Players B average balls pocketed during the match? If they do count, should they count as safes or zero balls pocketed.

Which brings me to my next question, should playing a safe be part of the calculations of average balls run per inning?

The alternative is to create an average for fouls per inning.

I couldn't find a Olympic ready standard definition for these calculations on the WCBS on WPA websites.

I am doing this because I want to help other people player better pool against players. Not compete against a super challenging high run. Plus I am making a website to help track 141 statistics for myself mostly.

Based on my data playing fouls can be better then leaving an easy run on the table.
Yes safties and fouls count into the occasion since it is a turn at the table. This is how i score it in my league as well.


PETE TONKIN CUSTOM CUES

Bayshore Billiards 14.1 League ~ Facebook Page ----> https://www.facebook.com/Bayshorebilliardsstraightpool

High Runs:

2019 - In Game - 127
2018 - Practice - 136
(10 years in the making to go from 119 to 136...Never give up)


2011 - Highest on Video - 50

50 ball evaluation by Blackjack David Sapolis -->https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiBfKo85z4g
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#3)
pt109
WO double hemlock

pt109 has a reputation beyond reputept109 has a reputation beyond reputept109 has a reputation beyond reputept109 has a reputation beyond reputept109 has a reputation beyond reputept109 has a reputation beyond reputept109 has a reputation beyond reputept109 has a reputation beyond reputept109 has a reputation beyond reputept109 has a reputation beyond reputept109 has a reputation beyond repute
 
pt109's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 27,903
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: out of country but incontinent
   
06-27-2019, 02:09 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevekur1 View Post
Yes safties and fouls count into the occasion since it is a turn at the table. This is how i score it in my league as well.
I donít think player B should have any strokes attributed to him til he actually strokes.
If player A breaks illegally twice and then player B runs 150 and out....
...his BPI should be 150....50 BPI is false info.....IMO


Lionize your game.
http://www.alexpagulayan.com/

MAGIC CHALK call Marco Polo 647-287-8131

If pool players had to have knowledge of geometry and physics before talking about geometry and physics, all of the aiming threads would disappear.

Bob Jewett
SF Billiard Academy
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#4)
Bob Jewett
Northern California

Bob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 16,816
vCash: 1700
iTrader: 12 / 100%
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Berkeley, CA
   
06-27-2019, 02:38 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by pt109 View Post
I don’t think player B should have any strokes attributed to him til he actually strokes.
If player A breaks illegally twice and then player B runs 150 and out....
...his BPI should be 150....50 BPI is false info.....IMO
I think that is correct or certainly should be. Refusing the shot is not a turn at the table.

But if it was a turn and you wanted to screw up your opponent's average, win the lag, take the break shot and miss the rack five times in a row.

So far as I know, no written set of rules has good instructions for how to score per-inning average. If your opponent concedes the last three hangers do you get credit for them? (as just one example)


Bob Jewett
SF Billiard Academy

Last edited by Bob Jewett; 06-27-2019 at 02:43 PM.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#5)
justnum
AzB Silver Member
justnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 9,537
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Dec 2005
   
06-27-2019, 06:33 PM

Are we writing the standard system for statistics of a 14.1 match?
The discussions leads to,

Does that mean player A had one inning with multiple fouls?

Or is that two separate innings with only Player A having a turn?




Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
I think that is correct or certainly should be. Refusing the shot is not a turn at the table.

But if it was a turn and you wanted to screw up your opponent's average, win the lag, take the break shot and miss the rack five times in a row.

So far as I know, no written set of rules has good instructions for how to score per-inning average. If your opponent concedes the last three hangers do you get credit for them? (as just one example)
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#6)
AtLarge
AzB Gold Member
AtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 10,947
vCash: 500
iTrader: 77 / 100%
Join Date: Apr 2008
   
06-28-2019, 12:34 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by justnum View Post
In a match of 14.1 calculating average balls per inning.

During the opening break
Player A fouls, Player B requests rerack and break
Player A fouls again Player B requests rerack and break

Do those first two turns count towards Players B average balls pocketed during the match? If they do count, should they count as safes or zero balls pocketed.
In the 14.1 stats I do, no, requesting a re-break does not count as an inning.

Quote:
Which brings me to my next question, should playing a safe be part of the calculations of average balls run per inning?
I do it two ways -- an average based on all innings and an average based on "attempted scoring innings," which does not count innings that consisted only of a safety or an intentional foul.

Quote:
The alternative is to create an average for fouls per inning.
This isn't clear.

Quote:
I couldn't find a Olympic ready standard definition for these calculations on the WCBS on WPA websites.
To my knowledge, no such thing exists.

Quote:
Based on my data playing fouls can be better then leaving an easy run on the table.
Of course; intentional fouls are an integral part of 14.1.

Here's an example of the 14.1 stats threads I do: https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=479422
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#7)
Bob Jewett
Northern California

Bob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 16,816
vCash: 1700
iTrader: 12 / 100%
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Berkeley, CA
   
06-28-2019, 09:22 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by justnum View Post
... Does that mean player A had one inning with multiple fouls? ...
That's what I would choose if I were writing the 14.1 standards for scoring.


Bob Jewett
SF Billiard Academy
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#8)
justnum
AzB Silver Member
justnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 9,537
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Dec 2005
   
06-28-2019, 09:22 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by AtLarge View Post

Here's an example of the 14.1 stats threads I do: https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=479422

You statistics is great for showing what pro level performance is like.

I am not a pro. I am hardly a strong amateur.

For me to measure myself with the same stats as a pro will reveal the obvious, how poorly I compare.


To better gauge my amateur improvement my focus will be on intention of the shot?

I've seen some pros play a safe, but the incoming player finds a line from the rack.

When an intentional foul results in the incoming player having a small runout instead of giving up a large runout.

When a player misses during a run out and leaves a high runout pattern for the incoming player.

I know myself well enough to select choice shots at specific moments, but other times am completely ignorant to the risks of missing.

The stats of amateur 141 to me is about what types of errors am I making during my match. Errors aside from the obvious, I can't pocket balls and I can't get the right shape.

I am thinking about errors that I can fix and do not require huge amounts of training, just a shift in my approach during the match.

The stats might reveal how many balls I give up when I fail to play safe and go for the run out.

It could reveal that each time I go for the safe, I end winning the defense battle.

Those tips for me as an amateur are easier goals, than just saying I am going run 16 balls today. I am not even close to having that as an achievable goal.

Last edited by justnum; 06-28-2019 at 09:26 AM.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#9)
justnum
AzB Silver Member
justnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 9,537
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Dec 2005
   
06-28-2019, 09:32 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
That's what I would choose if I were writing the 14.1 standards for scoring.

Any thoughts on how to profile players aside from their match performance.

I keep hearing the old players with bad vision, old players with shaky hands and young players doing better after a few drinks.

I don't think Effren got worse, I just think everyone else got better.

What is the optimal physical profile of a billiards player, 5ft tall or 7 ft tall?
Does arm length and wingspan matter?
Does 20/20 vision make a difference?
How do you measure players that stay calm during a big payday tournament final round?
Pool players have a strong tradition of strong outbursts following what seemed to be pro level playing. Is that a "crazy" factor?
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#10)
Bob Jewett
Northern California

Bob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 16,816
vCash: 1700
iTrader: 12 / 100%
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Berkeley, CA
   
06-28-2019, 10:08 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by justnum View Post
Any thoughts on how to profile players aside from their match performance. ...
I think it's better to profile them according to what they do in matches and perhaps the occasional exhibition run. One example would be statistics on the sort of shots they end up playing in the run. How much does the cue ball move? How many clusters do they have to deal with -- how many times does the cue ball contact a second object ball on a shot? How hard are the shots the player ends up shooting? What are the typical break shots? (Although safety play seems to have gone out of style....) What fraction of safety battles does a player win. I imagine that Pat Fleming has some categories to add to this.

The nebulous stuff is best left to the talking heads.


Bob Jewett
SF Billiard Academy
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#11)
9BallJim
AzB Silver Member
9BallJim has a reputation beyond repute9BallJim has a reputation beyond repute9BallJim has a reputation beyond repute9BallJim has a reputation beyond repute9BallJim has a reputation beyond repute9BallJim has a reputation beyond repute9BallJim has a reputation beyond repute9BallJim has a reputation beyond repute9BallJim has a reputation beyond repute9BallJim has a reputation beyond repute9BallJim has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 256
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Dallas, TX
   
06-28-2019, 09:57 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by justnum View Post
In a match of 14.1 calculating average balls per inning.

During the opening break
Player A fouls, Player B requests rerack and break
Player A fouls again Player B requests rerack and break

Do those first two turns count towards Players B average balls pocketed during the match? If they do count, should they count as safes or zero balls pocketed.

Which brings me to my next question, should playing a safe be part of the calculations of average balls run per inning?

The alternative is to create an average for fouls per inning.

I couldn't find a Olympic ready standard definition for these calculations on the WCBS on WPA websites.

I am doing this because I want to help other people player better pool against players. Not compete against a super challenging high run. Plus I am making a website to help track 141 statistics for myself mostly.

Based on my data playing fouls can be better then leaving an easy run on the table.


I believe Straight Pool Deluxe (SPD), which is the app I use, does not increment the innings for player B. Therefore if player A starts the game committing five illegal breaks (for which player B insists player A rebreaks), player A will have five innings recorded and there will be zero innings recorded for player B.

On a similar note, SPD records balls per inning (BPI) in the traditional sense (number of balls pocketed divided by the current number of innings). This BPI is affected by the way innings are counted as indicated above.

There is a separate statistic called SPD Avg which ignores innings that start with a safety or an intentional foul, which provided a more offensive type of BPI. There is a configuration parameter that will control whether to count innings started with a safety if the incoming player attempts a shot regardless of whether they make it, indicating that the safety wasnít effective.


14.1 High Runs: 50, 44, 43, 57, 70, 55, 50

YouTube channel
Ustream channel
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#12)
justnum
AzB Silver Member
justnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 9,537
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Dec 2005
   
06-30-2019, 04:27 PM

Balls per inning is not the same as average balls per run. Both are important.

Balls per inning has the ability to highlight exceptional defense in 141.
Average Balls per run showcases, amazing pocketing skills.

Take the situation below:
A fouls, B plays safe, A fouls, B plays safe, A plays safe, B runs 150.
B has an average balls per run of 150, safes dont count,
B has an average balls per inning of 50.


Situation 2
Player C fouls, B plays safe, C fouls, B runs 150.
Player B is amazing, average balls per run 150.
Player B has an average balls per inning of 75.

Who is the better defensive player? Player C or Player A.

Someone that can play more innings against a high runner can only be seen in average balls per inning.

When evaluating lower tier players, knowing how to interpret the info can help players get better.
Player B could say both Players A and C loss, but the average balls per inning could be interpreted to say A knows better defense than C.


There should also be some sort of errors category.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pt109 View Post
I don’t think player B should have any strokes attributed to him til he actually strokes.
If player A breaks illegally twice and then player B runs 150 and out....
...his BPI should be 150....50 BPI is false info.....IMO

Last edited by justnum; 06-30-2019 at 04:30 PM.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#13)
2/5MR2
amateur
2/5MR2 has a reputation beyond repute2/5MR2 has a reputation beyond repute2/5MR2 has a reputation beyond repute2/5MR2 has a reputation beyond repute2/5MR2 has a reputation beyond repute2/5MR2 has a reputation beyond repute2/5MR2 has a reputation beyond repute2/5MR2 has a reputation beyond repute2/5MR2 has a reputation beyond repute2/5MR2 has a reputation beyond repute2/5MR2 has a reputation beyond repute
 
2/5MR2's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 24
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: New York city
   
07-21-2019, 05:31 PM

Hi JustNum,

Cool to find another player interested in the analytical aspect of 14.1. I have developed a 14.1 scoreboard software that calculated a fair amount of statistics. You can see an example of it in action here:

https://www.facebook.com/sean.c.morg...8176239221462/

For stats, look in between racks and at the end for the finals stats. The app is called 'Fourteen-One Engine'. While I was developing it I put a lot of thought into 14.1 stats, how to calculate them, which ones are relevant, what is getting measured, etc....

But first, to answer your questions: Asking for a rerack should definitely have no effect on the average balls per inning of player B. I cannot think of any arguments in favor of this being counted. Also this is how the app '14.1 scorer' does it.

But this is not too important because I consider the stat you call 'average balls per inning' a.k.a BPI (balls per inning) a.k.a PPI (points per innings) to be meaningless.

You give the example of a player having a BPI of 50 (extremely high). In this case, yes, you can deduce that the player did not play bad (a beginner cannot achieve a BPI of 50). But this is a very rare case. In the stats I have seen (mostly from AtLarge posts) BPI will usually be a number between 0 and 30 and it does not correlate at all with the level of the player of the quality of the performance in that match. You can see the same player having 5, 10 and then 20 for different matches.

Of course this is because safety battles will push BPI down quickly. In the example you give, let's say at the beginning there is a safety battle of 12 innings for each player. Now your BPI will be 10 instead of 50. But that safetly battle doesn't change the fact that the player ran 150 and played extremely well. How can one number of 1/5 of the other?

Which brings the question: what is BPI supposed to measure anyway? It obviously does an horrible job of measuring the quality of the offensive play of a player. It doesn't seem to say anything about the defensive play either. So yes, this is what I am getting to: BPI/PPI/'average balls per inning' does not measure anything of interest reliably and it is almost completely useless.

The stat PPASI (what you call average balls per run) is better because, at least, it focused on only one aspect: offensive play, it ignores safeties and intentional fouls. I do calculate it in my scoreboard software. But my experience with it so far is that, just like BPI, it fails to correlate well with the (offensive) performance of a player because small unimportant runs takes the number down quickly.

I think 'attempted scoring innings' is not the correct data to average over if you want to calculate a scalar that will be a measure the offensive performance of a player, mainly because the same importance is giving to small runs and big runs while this is not how we conceptualize offensive performance.

I feel the correct data to average over is the 'offensive shots taken'. The stat 'offensive play index' (the first line on the stats board of my scoreboard app) uses this strategy. 1.000 is perfection and 0.000 is a guy who misses every shot. I have scored about 25 matches with it so far and I can now say that it correlates extremely well with the offensive performance of a player. i see the same players scoring very similar OPI values values match after match.

(Note: The number between brackets is the number of offensive shots taken. This is to give an idea of how relevant the value is.)

Rough guideline for signification of values:

Beginner: 0.000 to 0.200
Amateur: 0.200 to 0.500
Good Amateur: 0.500 to 0.750
Pros: 0.750 to 0.900
Top Pros: 0.900 to 1.000


I will make a post soon describing in detail how to calculate it. I just want to have a little more data to be sure it works well. Would love to have exchanges with anyone interested in that kind of analytical stuff so comments/questions are welcome.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#14)
justnum
AzB Silver Member
justnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 9,537
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Dec 2005
   
07-29-2019, 01:02 PM

Breaking the 141 data into offensive and defensive measurements is where I am at.

Amateur or league play compared to standard pro competition play have major differences. In pro competition play there isn't really much for me to measure because they all seem to have similar performances, in terms of how many balls they can run. I am only talking about the top tier.

My interests are in amateur or league play because I play it. I play in a league. The play is not nearly pro level. Approaching it with pro level metrics didn't make sense to me.

What did make sense was I get turns at the table, and I get to choose if my shot is offensive or defensive in nature. What excites me is when I play a defensive scratch and lose a point, how often will my opponent see a way out or pass it back to me?

The opening break we talked about. Situation that is related:

1) Opponent needs 1 point to win, I am down by 14 and I have to decide break shot or safety play. I choose safety play why risk missing? Should the opponent break the rack and risk me running 14 or endure the safety battle? My opponent knows I need fourteen, what are the chances of me getting all 14, when my highest run that match is 8.

This situation interests me because the loser has been identified before the match ended. The score reflects it, so what should the loser do? Continue playing only to realize the loss ten minutes later.
The data shows its not likely for me to run out. But I could play enough safe-scratches combined with balls pocketed I could win.

My opponent could be assessing my safe play and foresee that drawn out battle. Instead of playing pro standard, breaks the rack and leaves the table wide open.

The dilemma of playing technically right versus playing the skill level of my opponent.

My analysis isn't to measure pro vs beginner. I am looking for patterns in playing behavior which is why I need the offensive and defensive measurements.




Quote:
Originally Posted by 2/5MR2 View Post
Hi JustNum,

Cool to find another player interested in the analytical aspect of 14.1. I have developed a 14.1 scoreboard software that calculated a fair amount of statistics. You can see an example of it in action here:

Which brings the question: what is BPI supposed to measure anyway?

I think 'attempted scoring innings' is not the correct data to average over if you want to calculate a scalar that will be a measure the offensive performance of a player, mainly because the same importance is giving to small runs and big runs while this is not how we conceptualize offensive performance.




Would love to have exchanges with anyone interested in that kind of analytical stuff so comments/questions are welcome.

Last edited by justnum; 07-29-2019 at 01:09 PM.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#15)
sjm
Stu with the Ko brothers
sjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond repute
 
sjm's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 15,884
vCash: 525
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: May 2003
Location: New York, NY
   
07-30-2019, 01:21 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by justnum View Post
Breaking the 141 data into offensive and defensive measurements is where I am at.
Not me, though I understand why you and many others feel this way and wish you luck in separating them to te extent possible.

At 14.1, the type of innings you get is, to some extent, dictated by the quality of your safety play. The better you play defense, the higher the percentage of your innings will be the kind in which you can make a run.

Winning at straight pool is not only about what you do with your offensive turns, but also how often you create them. If your opponent is creating more chances for a run than you through superior tactical play, they may beat you even if they run fewer balls per offensive inning than you do. A stat like balls run per offensive inning simply doesn't get it done for me.

BPI is, of course, not without its faults, and it does penalize those inclined to play a little more defense than the next guy. Top five ever straight pooler Irving Crane (perhaps below only Greenleaf and Mosconi, and possibly below Sigel and Mizerak), who was inclined to play a little more defense than his contemporaries, typically had a BPI between 7 and 8. I've never seen a published BPI for Greenleaf, but compare this to Mosconi's 15 and Sigel's 13 and you'd be misled into believing that Irving played way below them. Not so!

Truth is, in the end, there's only one real way to measure straight pool performance, and that's win, losses, and titles. Offense and defense are ultimately inseparable.
  
Reply With Quote
Reply
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.