Pocket Size versus Business.

Wags

Wags

2 pocket-one pocket table
Silver Member
Just curious and food for thought.

Anybody notice that the entering of diamond tables into mainstream rooms coincide? I really don’t know if that means anything, but it is a justifiable observation. If they have a relationship, why?
My thoughts. When we all started playing this game are object was to just make the ball. I don’t believe that this has changed for 90+ percent of the players out there. So, why oh why, do owners tighten up pockets and make it harder for the majority of the customers to make balls? Sure, there is the ever constant whine of the better players to tighten them up, but, those few players don’t pay the bills. We all know that it is the 90+ percent that do that.

In this, “I want to be good now”, society, I think it is necessary to allow customers to make balls. There is another relationship to look at here. One of the biggest growths in pool happened when Valley introduced their table through vendors. People could make balls and participation grew.
Don’t get me wrong. I think Diamond is a fine table. I personally like to play on them. But they aren’t the table for the 90+ percent of the players out there. I was at a state tournament a few years back and it was one of the 1st years that Diamond tables were used. The majority of the players had never played on such a table, and consequently, there were a lot of bobbled shots. I would watch players that grew up on Valley tables take a shot on those Diamond tables, hit it right into the 2nd diamond from the pocket. It would bobble and the player would complain, “I get it perfect, why didn’t it fall?”
Why does this sport continued to discourage incoming players?
Why do we have so many different pocket sizes? Golf, for which we all have to agree is a pretty successful sport, doesn’t change hole sizes for the novice player and for the Pro player. They stay the same size. Maybe pool should take a hint.

In my opinion, for which I’m going to get a lot of guff, all pockets should be 5 inches. Face it, the pocket is all about the better player having an advantage. Don’t forget, the better player also has the advantage in shape play, speed and stroke. The better players put in time to hone those skills. The novice players just hope they get another shot. I would bet, if you run handicapped tournaments, leagues, etc., that the gap between players would close more dramatically by opening in the pockets than any other factor.
I would like to hear back from room owners if they have experienced any of this phenomena. Did anyone close up the pockets and lose business? Did anyone open the pockets and gain business? What are the thoughts out there?

BTW, here is my breakdown of the pool playing public with percentages and numbers based on a 15,000,000 participation level. You can disagree with the number placement, but it’s hard to disagree with the idea behind it.
0 – 90% = novice & social players, make the ball = 13,500,000 players
91% - 95% = think about the next shot and sometimes can get there = 750,000 players
96% - 98% = have the knowledge to be champions if they had discipline = 450,000 players
98% - 99% = can beat anyone but the top 1% = 300,000 players
99% - 99.9% = players that can place in a pro tournament = 135,000 players
99.9% - 99.999% = on the cusp professionals = 14,850 players
99.999% - 100% = the true professionals = 150 players
 
Slate Billiards

Slate Billiards

New member
Silver Member
Wags said:
Just curious and food for thought.

Anybody notice that the entering of diamond tables into mainstream rooms coincide? I really don’t know if that means anything, but it is a justifiable observation. If they have a relationship, why?
My thoughts. When we all started playing this game are object was to just make the ball. I don’t believe that this has changed for 90+ percent of the players out there. So, why oh why, do owners tighten up pockets and make it harder for the majority of the customers to make balls? Sure, there is the ever constant whine of the better players to tighten them up, but, those few players don’t pay the bills. We all know that it is the 90+ percent that do that.

In this, “I want to be good now”, society, I think it is necessary to allow customers to make balls. There is another relationship to look at here. One of the biggest growths in pool happened when Valley introduced their table through vendors. People could make balls and participation grew.
Don’t get me wrong. I think Diamond is a fine table. I personally like to play on them. But they aren’t the table for the 90+ percent of the players out there. I was at a state tournament a few years back and it was one of the 1st years that Diamond tables were used. The majority of the players had never played on such a table, and consequently, there were a lot of bobbled shots. I would watch players that grew up on Valley tables take a shot on those Diamond tables, hit it right into the 2nd diamond from the pocket. It would bobble and the player would complain, “I get it perfect, why didn’t it fall?”
Why does this sport continued to discourage incoming players?
Why do we have so many different pocket sizes? Golf, for which we all have to agree is a pretty successful sport, doesn’t change hole sizes for the novice player and for the Pro player. They stay the same size. Maybe pool should take a hint.

In my opinion, for which I’m going to get a lot of guff, all pockets should be 5 inches. Face it, the pocket is all about the better player having an advantage. Don’t forget, the better player also has the advantage in shape play, speed and stroke. The better players put in time to hone those skills. The novice players just hope they get another shot. I would bet, if you run handicapped tournaments, leagues, etc., that the gap between players would close more dramatically by opening in the pockets than any other factor.
I would like to hear back from room owners if they have experienced any of this phenomena. Did anyone close up the pockets and lose business? Did anyone open the pockets and gain business? What are the thoughts out there?

BTW, here is my breakdown of the pool playing public with percentages and numbers based on a 15,000,000 participation level. You can disagree with the number placement, but it’s hard to disagree with the idea behind it.
0 – 90% = novice & social players, make the ball = 13,500,000 players
91% - 95% = think about the next shot and sometimes can get there = 750,000 players
96% - 98% = have the knowledge to be champions if they had discipline = 450,000 players
98% - 99% = can beat anyone but the top 1% = 300,000 players
99% - 99.9% = players that can place in a pro tournament = 135,000 players
99.9% - 99.999% = on the cusp professionals = 14,850 players
99.999% - 100% = the true professionals = 150 players
Click to expand...

Players do like the big pockets better. Diamond does have a 5 inch pocket the difference is the slate shelf is deeper than on the valley. The "Pro-cut Diamond does have 4.5 inch pockets I think this is the table you have seen a lot of because of the deals they have on tournament used tables at Diamond. I have Nine 9ft tables with 5 inch pockets one 9ft with 4.25 inch pockets. One pro-cut 7ft Diamond 4.5 inch pockets and one valley 7ft 5inch pockets.
The players love the large pockets on the big tables and stay away from the tight table. However, I find that they prefer the tight Diamond to the valley. There is always more money in the Diamond when I collect.
 
RackRunner

RackRunner

Property of RackRunner
Silver Member
I would watch players that grew up on Valley tables take a shot on those Diamond tables, hit it right into the 2nd diamond from the pocket. It would bobble and the player would complain, “I hit it perfect, why didn’t it fall?”


This quote struck me as a little funny. If anyone hit a ball two diamonds up from the corner pocket and actually expected it to fall they are sadly mistaken. That ball would not have been struck perfect. It would have been way off the mark.
As for the question at hand, I agree with you that most people would rather get a warm and fuzzy feeling from just making balls, but it's the better players that actually want to challenge themselves and play on the tighter tables. I for one, would rather play on a Diamond table with tighter pockets. If you're missing shots on that type of table it will force you to concentrate a little more or go back to a table with pockets which we lovingly call sewers. JMHO...
 
Last edited:
D

Deadon

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think you are mistaken on some of your assumptions to start.

First, most all of the players are only social players, there for fun and to have a good time.

Second, they want to drink beer have fun and don't really give a s&&t if the pockets are tight and the balls don't go. As long as they can have a drink, joke with their friends, they will spend the same amount of cash. In fact, I don't think they notice the difference.

Cultivating new players on 5" pockets is not doing them a favor. They won't be able to adjust to the tighter tables when they play somewhere else. Which most developing players do.

Since we tightend the tables at Hardtimes, none of the business from social players has changed. Only a couple of the regular players have made any complaints. BTW, pockets are much less than 4.25".
 
cueandcushion

cueandcushion

Cue & Cushion_STL_MO
Silver Member
I think your argument has some merit. But the correlation towards the decline of pool assumes too much. The absence of a governing body of pool means all pool companies can make table pockets / rail profiles/ type of pocket cuts all vary from table to table. If there were two specs for amatuers vs Pro tables that were universal it would be a great start. 5" pockets for amateur players and 4" for pros would make for a more distinct difference. This would allow room owners to customize their room depending on their customer base. All bangers means all 5 inch pockets. Lots of shortstops mean more 4 inch pockets. That sort of thing. You are right about the 90% being bangers. 90% of people could care less about playing pool. They are really just wanting a night out or to have fun with their friends. Its not about the pool game. But that 10% of more serious players accounts for a much bigger % of a rooms income. Up to 30% or more comes from 10% of your customer base. More when you include cue sales etc.

Just ramblings from the other side of the counter.
 
R

Roll Out

Registered
Market Influences? Pocket Size?

If the serious players actually do account for 30-35% of your business what does that really mean? Have the 'serious players' chased out some of your casual customers by beating them out of a few bucks? This would skew your revenue percentages. I remember a friend of mine who owned a pool hall in Costa Mesa CA who used to tell 'the players' to either get a table, buy something, or leave. He considered 'the players' to be the ones who chased away his paying customers. He wanted the guy on a date, or a few buddies who would come in to play pool and have a few beers, or a few regulars who enjoyed going head to head against each other.

As far as pocket size goes, the ever shrinking pocket can be directly attributed to the one foul ball in hand rule of modern tournament nine-ball. Give ball in hand to a competent player and they will run out a very large percentage of the time. This led to a desire to thin the herd of run out nine ball players and tightening the pockets is the easiest way to do that. If the old two foul roll out rule were still in use the players relative skill levels would still be separated out by the better player rolling out to difficult shots that they can make but which the lesser players can't. The size of the pocket would not be used as it is now as a way of determining gradations of skill level.

But the question lingers, does the casual player become annoyed after missing a bunch of balls on tight pockets and then decide to go spend their entertainment dollar on bowling or a movie instead of the frustration of missing pool shots?

Roll Out
 
cueandcushion

cueandcushion

Cue & Cushion_STL_MO
Silver Member
AZ Big Jim said:
Coin Op? Give me tight pockets. My quarters last much longer :)
Click to expand...


Unfortunately that runs contrary to the entire business model of bars and bar box pool tables. Bars want the tables to be loose as possible. More games equals more quarters. Pocketing balls = happy customers = more drinks purchased. There are always exceptions....but only businessmen that can afford the drop in income.
 
N

notnilc20

notnilc20
Silver Member
I think it makes a difference....I had people come over to my house to play pool on my 9' Olhausen...it had 4.25" pockets if i remember correctly, and the slate was deep in the pocket. (One time I had to bang the ball in the side pocket for position reasons and it hit right in the middle but it hit the plastic piece at top of the cup which normally kisses the ball downward but instead it rebounded and hit the rim of the slate and rolled back onto the table). Anyway, my friends found it very frustrating because it was difficult to pocket balls that would normally go on a GC Brunswick. I was the only serious player, so I didn't mind the tighter conditions....but my friends always wanted to go to the pool room because the pockets were more forgiving.

I think that if there were two pool rooms side by side and one had loose pockets and the other had tight pockets...all other things being equal, the loose pocket room will eventually have all the business. As said before, the majority of your business if from bangers who want to impress their girl or friends....not to have a ball rattle out if not hit dead center of the pocket.
 
mvp

mvp

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Tighter pockets

make the pockets 2.5 inches the games would last longer keeping the players in the bar!!!! same concept of bars having tournys on one table.
 
R

ridinda9

AKA: Sandy Bagger
Silver Member
mvp said:
make the pockets 2.5 inches the games would last longer keeping the players in the bar!!!! same concept of bars having tournys on one table.
Click to expand...

great theory if your tables are on time .
But if you're running coin-op , wide pockets (and even shaved rails ) = more pocketed balls = faster games = more money in the machine per hour

down here the rooms have big wide Valleys for the bangers , and fast tight
tourney tables for "house player only" (with , of course , a "road player" exception !)
 
ososlow

ososlow

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
diamonds 4.5 inch pockets arent that small! you can still hit a ball bad at pocket speed and they will go in! Most people wouldn't notice unless you told them. Now if a hack mechanic tightens up the table to his/her version of 4.5 and cannot do it the same on every pocket on the table, that may cause a problem for the "players". :D the bangers could care less. its all about atmosphere, most dont care about the tables at all!
 
Wags

Wags

2 pocket-one pocket table
Silver Member
osowrong

Ososlow
Think you are wrong. Yes, while the bangers do care about the atmosphere, part of the atmosphere includes making balls and trying to win the game. For some reason this game brings out the competitive nature in all of us.
 
U

UPlayLucky

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I actually don't think novice players pays much attention to the tables. So a tight pocket table doesn't attract or detract them. I used to play at a place where novice players would consistently request the tightest table in the room. Not because of the pocket size but because of the location of the table. Anyway, they would not realize the pockets are any different. Now if you take intermediate players and beyond, they will care about the pocket size and will not play in rooms where they are the size of sewers.
 
Paul Schofield

Paul Schofield

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
notnilc20 said:
I think that if there were two pool rooms side by side and one had loose pockets and the other had tight pockets...all other things being equal, the loose pocket room will eventually have all the business.
Click to expand...

ABSOLUTELY PROFOUND!

I would reword the above statement to read: I think that if there were two pool rooms side by side and one had standard pockets as described in the BCA Rule Book and the other had pockets smaller than legal ...all other things being equal, the legal pocket room will eventually have all the business.

The adjective "tight" is a matter of perspective. A Pro-Cut Diamond could be considered "loose" compared to a 4" "tight" pocket. Contrary to the conventional wisdom of this forum, my 32 year experience as a billiard room proprietor tells me that a smaller than legal pocket does NOT make our beloved game more popular.
 
Last edited:
N

notnilc20

notnilc20
Silver Member
Absolutely Profound? a bit over-reaction no? I think you took my statement a bit too literally. I'm just saying that if you have two rooms and one table is more "player friendly" than the next, people would rather go there than play on the tables that aren't so forgiving.

If you think that's wrong or "Absolutely Profound"....fine that's your opinion. But I know for a fact that in my hometown as a College student when I was just a ball banger and had ball banger friends, we'd always go to the more player friendly room. The reason was just that....we hated to see the ball rattle out time and again. You're probably thinking well we should've practiced more to play better so that wouldn't happen. Now you're just thinking like a real pool player. Not the typical customer on a Friday/Saturday night who doesn't have the time or will to practice to play better. They are merely there for entertainment purposes only. Plus, you know those days when you just can't get anything to fall...everyone has em.....that can be quite frustrating right? We as pool players understand that those days will come and go....but for the average joe....that frustration might lead to them not coming back for awhile.
 
Paul Schofield

Paul Schofield

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Profound

notnilc20 said: If you think that's wrong or "Absolutely Profound"....fine that's your opinion.


notnilc20

I am not disagreeing or mocking your statement. I am in full agreement. Profound means to have "deep insight".

My angle is from a room owners persective. Make the game fun and inclusive to as many people as possible. You made my point.

Paul
 
Last edited:
DogsPlayingPool

DogsPlayingPool

"What's in your wallet?"
Silver Member
cueandcushion said:
Unfortunately that runs contrary to the entire business model of bars and bar box pool tables. Bars want the tables to be loose as possible. More games equals more quarters. Pocketing balls = happy customers = more drinks purchased. There are always exceptions....but only businessmen that can afford the drop in income.
Click to expand...

Concerning bar boxes:

Correct me if I'm wrong (because I'm not a room owner) but I thought the idea of a table playing easier isn't just about more quarters in the tray. Isn't it also about the table turning over more frequently so that patrons don't have to wait so long to get a turn at the table? Someone stated that a tougher table, making games play longer, will keep customers in the bar longer. I'm not sure that trumps the number of irritated customers that will leave and not come back because the tables aren't turning over and they're sick of waiting to get their turn to play. So looser tables make for happier customers not just because they are making more balls but also because they simply get to play instead of sitting around waiting all night for one or two cracks at the table.

So I always figured a big part of loose pockets on bar tables was to speed up the game so that customers got to play more frequently.

In pool rooms there is more leeway, right? I mean if there are 15 tables then 4 or 5 can be set up tighter for the more serious players with the remainder looser for the more social customers. The ratio can be tailored to fit the customer base.
 
Last edited:
B

BayBilliards

Fox Lake, IL
IMO its does seem to matter when it comes to people that play a game or two of pool a week. You have to also realize that those people are putting 10 to 20 bucks a month into a coin table where as people on time spend that in a few hours.. Those few game coin op users aren't paying your bills. I'm not saying screw them but think about it... I think for myself its easy to spot out people that will want a less hard table to play and for the ones that you can't figure out simply asking them what they want seems to make each customer feel more at home with the questions being asked to them. I think you should have a few loose pocket tables but a better majority of tighter. I think this because the majority of people that come out to play for fun are looking for just that. They don't mind if the game takes 2 minutes or an hour. Alot of the time they forget they are in a game.. they are outside smoking, drinking at the bar, talking with other people around... They don't see the other side of the coin that we players do. I have noticed with my regular bar clients that for the first few times of use they complain about the table being hard to play but then they go somewhere else, most of them realize that the table with tighter pockets is actually helping there game. " I went to the bar down the road and crushed my buddies the other night and I never do that!!" I see alot of people start to get into pool that way". I simply reply " The pockets here are doing their job" I personally say tighten um up it only brings pool players. You will always have your normal bar clients and single game coin op users but when you introduce a healthly mix of the two you will see a steady change in your business. Keeping the single game players happy results in them staying longer and buying more drinks and when you keep the players happy well we all know what that brings. So I say a few Coin ops with loose pockets and plently of tight pocket tables on hourly rate.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top