Drag Shots

Neil · Jan 3, 2017

BilliardsAbout said:
With a lovely shaped, rounded tip, there should be little problem, as you suggest. However, my bridge hand is in the cueing position for center ball. Using this technique, I'm all but guaranteed good contact. When someone does the traditional raise-the-fingers-high-for-follow bridge and cues to strike the cue ball with a level or slightly descending cue stick angle . . .

Obviously you have only thought of this in your head, and haven't actually checked it in reality. Try taking it to a table, and see just what you actually have to do to get the top part of the tip to make contact on the upper part of the cb.

Thanks for answering though, it's more than CJ ever did.

BasementDweller · Jan 3, 2017

BilliardsAbout said:
Your logic is good here if one has a razor's width of space between the cue tip and the cue ball at address (or if one is actually touching the cue ball with the tip). However, most players reading this thread "aim" at the cue ball from some distance away with the cue tip. So that 1) we all adjust with a final stroke somehow/some way 2) why not get the benefits of a backhand adjustment stroke (if you like and can apply those benefits)?

This is absolutely nonsensical.

It's getting scary in here.

BasementDweller · Jan 3, 2017

peppersauce said:
Robb Saez aims low left on almost everything until his final stroke. :thumbup:
I always wanted to ask him why, but I've never had the opportunity to talk to him.

He's answered that question before and he doesn't have an actual reason for it. That's just the way he has always done it he said. Or something to that effect.

BeiberLvr · Jan 3, 2017

BasementDweller said:
This is absolutely nonsensical.

It's getting scary in here.

For real. If that guy is an instructor, and gets paid for it, then I am in the wrong line of work.

BilliardsAbout · Jan 4, 2017

Neil said:
Obviously you have only thought of this in your head, and haven't actually checked it in reality. Try taking it to a table, and see just what you actually have to do to get the top part of the tip to make contact on the upper part of the cb.

Thanks for answering though, it's more than CJ ever did.

1. Did I say the top part of the tip? I might have said so, for which I do apologize, but it should be "good enough" that the method reduces jumping the cue ball because of a downward or level blow struck above center ball. And I like the roll one gets with the upward strike.

2. In addition to using the stroke myself, I've shown this method to dozens of students in one-on-one lessons and group clinics. Everyone likes it and is able to execute it after one to a few tries:

a) Bridge and aim for center ball

b) Come up slightly on that final forward stroke only

c) Next, bridge and aim below center on a different shot

d) Come up to center ball for good roll and control

BilliardsAbout · Jan 4, 2017

BasementDweller said:
This is absolutely nonsensical.

It's getting scary in here.

I tend to be a bit terse on these forums. Happy to explain in detail.

1) If you take aim at the ball/pause as your check off point with the cue tip right atop the cue ball/almost touching the cue ball, your comments are 100% right.

2) If instead, like most players, your final practice stroke stops/pauses short of the cue ball, you must somehow adjust/compensate/follow through etc. to hit where you are aiming over a distance. And some very good players are up to an inch or so off the cue ball, that is, almost half a cue ball's distance with the tip from where they will strike the cue ball.

Now, we tend to think of aim in terms of "straight from the tip to X on the cue ball," however, if I aim at center ball and then on the final stroke apply a portion of a tip of follow so I get a slight upward stroke, I'm adjusting only a fractional amount to get the roll and control I like.

BilliardsAbout · Jan 4, 2017

BeiberLvr said:
For real. If that guy is an instructor, and gets paid for it, then I am in the wrong line of work.

Yes, I am.

Yes, I do.

Yes, possibly, you are.

:thumbup:

Scott Lee · Jan 4, 2017

Making an 'upward' stroke on the CB will have your tip ending up in the air (or at least above the top of the CB)...ALWAYS an error, imo, although you see that with many great players, who don't use a pendulum stroke.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

BilliardsAbout said:
if I aim at center ball and then on the final stroke apply a portion of a tip of follow so I get a slight upward stroke, I'm adjusting only a fractional amount to get the roll and control I like.

BilliardsAbout · Jan 4, 2017

Scott Lee said:
Making an 'upward' stroke on the CB will have your tip ending up in the air (or at least above the top of the CB)...ALWAYS an error, imo, although you see that with many great players, who don't use a pendulum stroke.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Yessir. It's kind of funny to see players with a cue in front of the face like it's a sword, as if they're dueling with a follow shot.

BasementDweller · Jan 4, 2017

BilliardsAbout said:
I tend to be a bit terse on these forums. Happy to explain in detail.

I don't find you to be terse at all. In fact, it's just the opposite -- you often use too many words to explain even the simplest concepts.

1) If you take aim at the ball/pause as your check off point with the cue tip right atop the cue ball/almost touching the cue ball, your comments are 100% right.

2) If instead, like most players, your final practice stroke stops/pauses short of the cue ball, you must somehow adjust/compensate/follow through etc. to hit where you are aiming over a distance. And some very good players are up to an inch or so off the cue ball, that is, almost half a cue ball's distance with the tip from where they will strike the cue ball.

Now, we tend to think of aim in terms of "straight from the tip to X on the cue ball," however, if I aim at center ball and then on the final stroke apply a portion of a tip of follow so I get a slight upward stroke, I'm adjusting only a fractional amount to get the roll and control I like.

This really just doesn't make any sense regardless of how many words you use to explain it. So you're saying if a player doesn't come to rest close enough to the cue ball, instead of correcting that issue, your advice would be to use some sort of upstroke to get follow? So what's the answer for a draw stroke? Should they just adjust on the fly and dig into cloth?

This really doesn't make any sense.

So Scott chimes in and tries to set you straight:

Scott Lee said:
Making an 'upward' stroke on the CB will have your tip ending up in the air (or at least above the top of the CB)...ALWAYS an error, imo, although you see that with many great players, who don't use a pendulum stroke.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

BilliardsAbout said:
Yessir. It's kind of funny to see players with a cue in front of the face like it's a sword, as if they're dueling with a follow shot.

....and then you agree with him.

Oh my goodness. :banghead:

BilliardsAbout · Jan 5, 2017

Well, you might be right! I may have miscommunicated, yes, since you have not addressed the physics and logic presented. Read all my points below if you would and let's see if it helps us both.

1. We both know most strokes are taken over a rail, producing a downward angle of attack.

2. Down-angled strokes can jump or micro-jump.

3. Up-angled strokes work like striking the ball on the upstroke with a putter (like a pool stroke in that the backstroke and after, the bottom of the arc, are already completed - then we go past the starting address point to impact the ball). The golf ball starts with immediate or near-immediate topspin and seeks the path (very) well.

4. My point about address is that most players have a cue tip held away from the cue ball and then adjust to hit the point they aim. And many of these players miss that point they aim for, yes? The upward technique, however, is fairly easy to master. I shouldn't have confused the issue by going on this tangent, but whenever backhand cueing techniques are suggested, naysayers talk about missing the all-important cue ball point of impact, as if everyone's regular stroke (which requires backhand movement!) is just a-okay for 100% of shots. If everyone was hitting the cue ball with their regular backhand motion where they aimed . . . however, if you personally want to simplify your game with one or two strokes only, I understand. But one thing I've learned in pool is that there are always new techniques I can learn if I'm open to them.

5. The "answer(s)" for a draw stroke we can discuss next if you wish. But be logical--it will be a first cousin of the issue with the topspin stroke. We both have seen players inadvertently jump the cue ball on draw strokes. For draw or topspin, some players need to adjust grip--speed--aim--and angle of attack. Here we're discussing angle of attack.

6. I agree where I can with people. I agree with Scott that non-pendulum strokes fall into this technique. However, we both know that most players don't use pure pendulums, particularly on the second half of the motion past the checkoff point (the cue ball strike). My point? If you're an elbow dropper, loop stroker, piston stroker or J-stroker, you can hit the ball with an upward strike. You can also do it with a pendulum stroke if you want to learn how. I advocate stroking through the cue ball on a regular center ball hit to bring the tip to or near the cloth, sure, but there are an arsenal of strokes available to us if we think outside the box.

7. Do as I do. I ask clarifying questions about things that are new to me rather than insist "that can't work" or at least I don't dump on a new idea right away.

Your comments show you aren't attempting to track with me. Let's change that. I've showed dozens of players this technique in person and also told thousands of people online. It's a subtle movement, does not require lofting your cue out of your bridge or high in the air (although you can do so as Scott and I had observed) and is better shown and demonstrated then tried, especially if we're off on the wrong foot. I'm happy to Skype with you and show you--no cost to you, this is not some pool lesson I'm charging you for.

You are very bright and know a lot about the game. I'm sure a chat online would add to both our knowledge bases.

Thanks!

Neil · Jan 5, 2017

BilliardsAbout said:
Well, you might be right! I may have miscommunicated, yes, since you have not addressed the physics and logic presented. Read all my points below if you would and let's see if it helps us both.

1. We both know most strokes are taken over a rail, producing a downward angle of attack.

2. Down-angled strokes can jump or micro-jump.

3. Up-angled strokes work like striking the ball on the upstroke with a putter (like a pool stroke in that the backstroke and after, the bottom of the arc, are already completed - then we go past the starting address point to impact the ball). The golf ball starts with immediate or near-immediate topspin and seeks the path (very) well.

4. My point about address is that most players have a cue tip held away from the cue ball and then adjust to hit the point they aim. And many of these players miss that point they aim for, yes? The upward technique, however, is fairly easy to master. I shouldn't have confused the issue by going on this tangent, but whenever backhand cueing techniques are suggested, naysayers talk about missing the all-important cue ball point of impact, as if everyone's regular stroke (which requires backhand movement!) is just a-okay for 100% of shots. If everyone was hitting the cue ball with their regular backhand motion where they aimed . . . however, if you personally want to simplify your game with one or two strokes only, I understand. But one thing I've learned in pool is that there are always new techniques I can learn if I'm open to them.

5. The "answer(s)" for a draw stroke we can discuss next if you wish. But be logical--it will be a first cousin of the issue with the topspin stroke. We both have seen players inadvertently jump the cue ball on draw strokes. For draw or topspin, some players need to adjust grip--speed--aim--and angle of attack. Here we're discussing angle of attack.

6. I agree where I can with people. I agree with Scott that non-pendulum strokes fall into this technique. However, we both know that most players don't use pure pendulums, particularly on the second half of the motion past the checkoff point (the cue ball strike). My point? If you're an elbow dropper, loop stroker, piston stroker or J-stroker, you can hit the ball with an upward strike. You can also do it with a pendulum stroke if you want to learn how. I advocate stroking through the cue ball on a regular center ball hit to bring the tip to or near the cloth, sure, but there are an arsenal of strokes available to us if we think outside the box.

7. Do as I do. I ask clarifying questions about things that are new to me rather than insist "that can't work" or at least I don't dump on a new idea right away. Your comments show you aren't attempting to track with me. Let's change that. I've showed dozens of players this technique in person and also told thousands of people online. It's a subtle movement, does not require lofting your cue out of your bridge or high in the air (although you can do so as Scott and I had observed) and is better shown and demonstrated then tried, especially if we're off on the wrong foot. I'm happy to Skype with you and show you--no cost to you, this is not some pool lesson I'm charging you for.

You are very bright and know a lot about the game. I'm sure a chat online would add to both our knowledge bases.

Thanks!

Matt, I want you to try something. Set a coin in front of the cb. Using a normal downward stroke, you will jump the coin every time if you use a little speed on the stroke. Now, try your upstroke. Report back your findings.

BilliardsAbout · Jan 5, 2017

Neil, with respect, if you jump the coins with both strokes, which cue ball will land with more follow on it?

I admit it jumps. You can even hit it hard and play a force follow where the cue ball is in the air after impact the object ball then follows down table with the upstroke. Hard or soft, though, it seems to provide superior results.

We know it jumps! That's why I like to say "immediate or NEAR immediate topspin" in case the physicists are watching.

Neil · Jan 5, 2017

BilliardsAbout said:
Neil, with respect, if you jump the coins with both strokes, which cue ball will land with more follow on it?

I admit it jumps. You can even hit it hard and play a force follow where the cue ball is in the air after impact the object ball then follows down table with the upstroke. Hard or soft, though, it seems to provide superior results.

We know it jumps! That's why I like to say "immediate or NEAR immediate topspin" in case the physicists are watching.

OK, you admit it jumps, so now we are getting somewhere. The mere fact that it does jump proves that that even though you think you are using an upstroke, you are in fact still using a down stroke.

As far as the immediate or near immediate topspin, you have that with either stroke. Just hitting 3/4 of the way up the cb gives you that.

BilliardsAbout · Jan 5, 2017

Ay-yay-yay, sir. It jumps all but imperceptibly. I have not tried to clear a coin, as I wrote.

3/4 of the way up to sounds pretty good--but--interest in what many pros do and a technique that keeps you near center ball was intriguing to me years ago.

Please bridge and aim for center ball or below--then put follow on it with your stroke. You are hitting down to up unless your bridge hand/fingers have moved.

Neil · Jan 5, 2017

BilliardsAbout said:
Ay-yay-yay, sir. It jumps all but imperceptibly. I have not tried to clear a coin, as I wrote.

3/4 of the way up to sounds pretty good--but--interest in what many pros do and a technique that keeps you near center ball was intriguing to me years ago.

Please bridge and aim for center ball or below--then put follow on it with your stroke. You are hitting down to up unless your bridge hand/fingers have moved.

Matt, has it ever occurred to you, and have you actually checked to see if you are actually hitting on an upstroke, or if your cue has already come up to "full" (desired) height before contact and then actually hits on a near level stroke?

And, if you have checked it, how did you do so? Because, without high-speed camera work, I think it would be very hard to tell. I believe you will find that almost all, if not all, that do their warmup strokes lower than they are going to hit, and then raise on the last stroke, are actually raising within the first 1"-3" of the final stroke and then the cue stays level until contact.

JoeyInCali · Jan 5, 2017

BilliardsAbout said:
Ay-yay-yay, sir. It jumps all but imperceptibly. I have not tried to clear a coin, as I wrote.

3/4 of the way up to sounds pretty good--but--interest in what many pros do and a technique that keeps you near center ball was intriguing to me years ago.

Please bridge and aim for center ball or below--then put follow on it with your stroke. You are hitting down to up unless your bridge hand/fingers have moved.

Agreed!
Place bridge you mean.

BilliardsAbout · Jan 6, 2017

Neil said:
Matt, has it ever occurred to you, and have you actually checked to see if you are actually hitting on an upstroke, or if your cue has already come up to "full" (desired) height before contact and then actually hits on a near level stroke?

And, if you have checked it, how did you do so? Because, without high-speed camera work, I think it would be very hard to tell. I believe you will find that almost all, if not all, that do their warmup strokes lower than they are going to hit, and then raise on the last stroke, are actually raising within the first 1"-3" of the final stroke and then the cue stays level until contact.

An excellent thought there. I was planning on tripod shooting some video soon for another project and will take a look including close-ups on stick and cue ball. And I know what you mean as far as pros semi-looping from a low spot to a high spot. But watch when a player who uses "walk up the ladder" as I suggest strikes at center ball or quite close to it, and gets plenty of follow, despite the cue and object balls being fairly close together (so it isn't table-generated topspin).

And if I bridge and aim for center, rather than the traditional bridging high, I get the same roll distance or better. If I'm returning to level I would be hitting center ball or else my closed hand bridge would spring open.

A checkpoint is you continue the stroke motion past cue ball impact. If you exaggerate the stroke the bridge will spring open and the cue soar on high . . .

Am I understanding your post correctly?

BasementDweller · Jan 6, 2017

BilliardsAbout said:
Well, you might be right! I may have miscommunicated, yes, since you have not addressed the physics and logic presented. Read all my points below if you would and let's see if it helps us both.

What's there to address regarding the physics? I guess you think you can somehow overcome cue ball hop by performing an up stroke. I'm not certain you can do this, but more importantly -- I don't see the value in even trying to.

I think I have addressed the logic presented. As a matter of fact -- that's exactly what I've done. If you think it would be beneficial for your students to hit the cue ball somewhere other than where they aim on follow shots, I can't really see an argument against teaching your students to do the same thing on all their shots. Why not?

1. We both know most strokes are taken over a rail, producing a downward angle of attack.

2. Down-angled strokes can jump or micro-jump.

So what if the cue ball micro-jumps? Snooker players deal with this phenomenon just fine. Why should pool players selectively attempt to deal with this every once in while? Wouldn't this just needlessly complicate the game for them?

3. Up-angled strokes work like striking the ball on the upstroke with a putter (like a pool stroke in that the backstroke and after, the bottom of the arc, are already completed - then we go past the starting address point to impact the ball). The golf ball starts with immediate or near-immediate topspin and seeks the path (very) well.

So what? Again you are advocating needless complication of the game to avoid what exactly? Micro-jumps? To make matters worse, I don't think you can even avoid this phenomenon using your method since the table will still have rails. Also, I'm not even convinced that the cue ball wouldn't micro-jump with a perfectly level cue on a firmly struck follow shot. I could be wrong about that -- I would need to review the physics on that one.

4. My point about address is that most players have a cue tip held away from the cue ball and then adjust to hit the point they aim. And many of these players miss that point they aim for, yes? The upward technique, however, is fairly easy to master. I shouldn't have confused the issue by going on this tangent, but whenever backhand cueing techniques are suggested, naysayers talk about missing the all-important cue ball point of impact, as if everyone's regular stroke (which requires backhand movement!) is just a-okay for 100% of shots. If everyone was hitting the cue ball with their regular backhand motion where they aimed . . . however, if you personally want to simplify your game with one or two strokes only, I understand. But one thing I've learned in pool is that there are always new techniques I can learn if I'm open to them.

5. The "answer(s)" for a draw stroke we can discuss next if you wish. But be logical--it will be a first cousin of the issue with the topspin stroke. We both have seen players inadvertently jump the cue ball on draw strokes. For draw or topspin, some players need to adjust grip--speed--aim--and angle of attack. Here we're discussing angle of attack.

6. I agree where I can with people. I agree with Scott that non-pendulum strokes fall into this technique. However, we both know that most players don't use pure pendulums, particularly on the second half of the motion past the checkoff point (the cue ball strike). My point? If you're an elbow dropper, loop stroker, piston stroker or J-stroker, you can hit the ball with an upward strike. You can also do it with a pendulum stroke if you want to learn how. I advocate stroking through the cue ball on a regular center ball hit to bring the tip to or near the cloth, sure, but there are an arsenal of strokes available to us if we think outside the box.

7. Do as I do. I ask clarifying questions about things that are new to me rather than insist "that can't work" or at least I don't dump on a new idea right away. Your comments show you aren't attempting to track with me. Let's change that. I've showed dozens of players this technique in person and also told thousands of people online. It's a subtle movement, does not require lofting your cue out of your bridge or high in the air (although you can do so as Scott and I had observed) and is better shown and demonstrated then tried, especially if we're off on the wrong foot. I'm happy to Skype with you and show you--no cost to you, this is not some pool lesson I'm charging you for.

You are very bright and know a lot about the game. I'm sure a chat online would add to both our knowledge bases.

Thanks!

There's just so much more here that is head scratching. If an instructor's job is to help a player get better, I would think becoming more consistent would be a primary goal. If a player employed your technique how would they even go about dissecting their errors? For example, say a player was working on a particular follow shot and they were continually overrunning position, using this technique they couldn't even be sure where they were striking the cue ball to begin with so they would just be stuck guessing.

Then you throw in backhand English, as if that needs to be employed using this "change the striking point at the last second" approach. One doesn't have to do that do use BHE. You can use BHE and aim at the cue ball at the exact spot you intend to hit it.

As a rule of thumb, it just seems like the game should be simplified unless there's a good argument against it. In this instance, I don't think there's a good argument why someone should just randomly cue the ball higher than they are aiming at it. Actually, I don't even think there's much of an argument at all. It's just bad advice that should be avoided.

BilliardsAbout · Jan 11, 2017

So what? Again you are advocating needless complication of the game to avoid what exactly? Micro-jumps?

I'm advocating a cue technique for smooth follow. Many players struggle with this aspect of the game.

If an instructor's job is to help a player get better, I would think becoming more consistent would be a primary goal.

Showing players this technique who tell me, "Matt, I'm having a lot of trouble with follow shots" does so.

In this instance, I don't think there's a good argument why someone should just randomly cue the ball higher than they are aiming at it.

It is not random. You select the spot where you will strike the cue ball, however, you are not pointed there as the final backstroke begins.

Have you discussed with a pro (although not all pros do so or would articulate it this way) the concept of "bringing all strokes back to center as much as possible"? That is, when one cues for english (or in this case, topspin) yet their final backstroke brings the cue stick to near center ball. Here, I'm advocating starting at center to save effort and ensure the little upstroke movement.

Actually, I don't even think there's much of an argument at all. It's just bad advice that should be avoided.

You may not think there's an argument, as you wrote, and that I'm giving bad advice, for four reasons:

1. You aren't reading my posts with care. The argument isn't to avoid micro-jumping, as you wrote.

2. You haven't tried the technique yourself to see it's efficacy or you haven't recommended it to someone who may be different than you (who struggles with topspin shots) to enjoy their improvement.

3. You are discounting the fact that I've shared this with dozens of players in person and more online, and gotten great feedback from the technique. I also use it during play.

4. You haven't taken the time to meet with me for a free demonstration online, as I've promised.

The practical elements I suggest remove this discussion from an argument (theoretical) to growth--for both of us. Why not try it and learn something new? At a minimum, you can learn how to better defeat my thesis and disprove my students who like this technique.

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