10 Ball "Pushout" Rule for Wrongfully Pocketed Balls - WHY?

Then answer me this:

When Bustamante played Burford Tuesday night (I watched the whole match on Ustream Wednesday), Burford shot 2 banks the whole match, both were obvious 1 rail banks, and both times the ball fell after 2 rails, and he kept shooting after they fell. Then why didn't Bustamante get to shoot after he slopped in these balls?????

They were playing by Arena rules. Do they not include the call shot rule?
 
Great Rule

Duane Tuula said:
Ahhh, quite a bit different than a pushout. But ok, I see the relationship ;)


I believe by making 10-ball a "call shot" game the attempt is being made to eliminate some of the "luck factor" of games like 9-ball.

That being said, this new "option" comes into play when a player misses their called shot, slops in another ball (or more). If you are "hooked" on the next shot you better believe you will be shooting again. If the next shot is open or playable then the incoming player will shoot. I believe this eliminates the luck factor of missing your shot and hooking the incoming player by accident.

The first question that comes up as a TD is often "can I play safe and pocket a ball?". The answer is sure, but your opponent has the choice. This puts a premium on playing a good safety. The example I'm often provided is what if the 2-ball is at one end of the table and the 3-ball at the other in a bad spot. Can I just make the 2 and call safe. Yes, but the opponent has the choice to pass it back or shoot the shot.
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Never played it as a pushout, but do play with the "option" , I like it. The only downfall I here people mention is they can't do a two way shot. Well my answer is just make the ball.
 
Snapshot9 said:
When Bustamante played Burford Tuesday night (I watched the whole match on Ustream Wednesday), Burford shot 2 banks the whole match, both were obvious 1 rail banks, and both times the ball fell after 2 rails, and he kept shooting after they fell. Then why didn't Bustamante get to shoot after he slopped in these balls?????

They were playing by Arena rules. Do they not include the call shot rule?
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Don't really know the answer, but the rules I've seen for Arena 10 Ball only mention situations particular to Arena 10 Ball and there is no mention about it not being call shot. Perhaps they are playing it like 9 Ball, but I sure hope not.

http://www.accu-stats.com/arenarules.pdf
 
robsnotes4u said:
Never played it as a pushout, but do play with the "option" , I like it. The only downfall I here people mention is they can't do a two way shot. Well my answer is just make the ball.
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There are no two way shots in rotation games that this rule takes away from you. It only deprives you of chicken shit safeties and can screw you if you bang away.

JC
 
JC said:
There are no two way shots in rotation games that this rule takes away from you. It only deprives you of chicken shit safeties and can screw you if you bang away.

JC
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Well that depends on what you mean by 2 way shot. Certainly the shot/safety is alive in WPA 10 Ball (not under WPA + rules), but you can't play 2 balls at once hoping one goes in or play the lowest ball to a hole while taking a free roll at knocking the money ball in, like you can in 9 Ball.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Two-ways aren't affected unless you make a non-legal ball.

pj
chgo
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By making it a two way shot, it would be pocketing the ball illegally. Like someone else referenced earlier, if the 1 was in the jaw of the corner with no way to get shape on the 2, you would simply call the 1 in the side and leave your opponent stuck. I lke the rule personally and think it forces you to be either more aggressive with position, or better at playing safe without pocketing the ball.
 
dareads said:
By making it a two way shot, it would be pocketing the ball illegally. Like someone else referenced earlier, if the 1 was in the jaw of the corner with no way to get shape on the 2, you would simply call the 1 in the side and leave your opponent stuck. I lke the rule personally and think it forces you to be either more aggressive with position, or better at playing safe without pocketing the ball.
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No, what I believe he meant was that you can still cut the 1 down to the corner and leave the CB behind the stack for the 2. If you make it, you're golden, if you don't, opponent is still hosed. Not a 2-fer or safety-pocketing shot, but an offensive-defensive.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
10 Ball Rules (at least those I've seen, including WPA and BCA/BCAPL) say that if you "wrongfully pocket" a ball, either by pocketing a ball on a called safety or by pocketing a ball without also legally pocketing a called ball, it's an automatic push shot and your opponent has the option of returning play to you.

I've been aware of and played by this rule for a long time, but I've always wondered what the reason for it is. I think I heard somewhere (here?) that it's to prevent too-easy safeties - is that it? If so, how does pocketing a ball make a safety too easy?

Anybody know? Bueller?

pj
chgo
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Imagine that 4 ball is in the cluster. You have to pot 3 ball in the pocket and call safety and lock cue ball. Too simple, and opponent must open cluster for you.

Sorry did't read this:
JC said:
I wondered this too at first and then suddenly it became quite obvious. The one ball hanging in a pocket and two ball in a cluster behind some balls way down yonder. No way in hell to get shape on the two so why not just call safe and shoot the one in leaving the cue ball right there? Let your opponent shoot from there and try to hit the two instead. Why not? Because there's no skill involved in your shot and none the less you have gained a huge advantage by removing the near target from the table. But in order to avoid argument as to what does and doesn't constitute this act, all illegally pocketed balls must be treated the same. If you don't understand why it must be this way then play a few sets with a buddy and take this rule away. Look for opportunities to play these kind of chicken shit safeties and see what happens. It gets ugly fast. It's not like 8 ball because you're not both shooting at the same balls although similar situations can come up near end game of 8 ball.

JC
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:thumbup:
 
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I would say the #1 reason for this rule is to stop you from making a ball and calling safe. Though this is rarely the optimal shot, it is a very easy shot to just pocket the 4 if the 5 is tied up. Any call shot game would open the door for this. If it didn't you could simply call the wrong hole and pocket it. With this rule your opponent can pass on the shot. This makes it a better idea to find a legit safe that requires some skill. The second reason for the rule is to eliminate the player from profiting from making the ball in the wrong pocket and shitting a safe. In this case he would be shooting again instead.
 
I don't know if anybody has said this yet, but to me the answer is simple!

You should not be rewarded for illegally pocketing a ball. By having the ability to return the shot to the player that just illegally pocketed the ball, you eliminate this!
 
I like the new 10 ball rules ... but

I'm a real fan of the new 10 ball rules and anything that takes luck out of the game. But I have to say I really don't understand the illegally pocketed ball nuance. It would seem to me that any miss should convert into a push whether or not an out of order ball falls. When a player comes to the table he would have two simple options: call safe or call pocket, and then execute.

It seems the argument for the illegally pocketed ball rule hinges on the "hanging ball dead lock safety" which is indeed a crushing blow. But there are many other situations where there is a just as deadly lock up safety that does not involve pocketing a ball. I don't see the difference. And there are many situations where missing a called shot results in lucky roll. Why only cancel the lucky roll if another ball accidentally falls in?

I hear a lot of discussion about this rule including here which tells me the rules may not yet be totally baked. But I sure like the direction of taking slop and the robo-breaks out of the game.

Are there any other arguments against converting every miss into a push besides the lock up hanger safety?
 
oneballeddie said:
I'm a real fan of the new 10 ball rules and anything that takes luck out of the game. But I have to say I really don't understand the illegally pocketed ball nuance. It would seem to me that any miss should convert into a push whether or not an out of order ball falls. When a player comes to the table he would have two simple options: call safe or call pocket, and then execute.

It seems the argument for the illegally pocketed ball rule hinges on the "hanging ball dead lock safety" which is indeed a crushing blow. But there are many other situations where there is a just as deadly lock up safety that does not involve pocketing a ball. I don't see the difference. And there are many situations where missing a called shot results in lucky roll. Why only cancel the lucky roll if another ball accidentally falls in?

I hear a lot of discussion about this rule including here which tells me the rules may not yet be totally baked. But I sure like the direction of taking slop and the robo-breaks out of the game.

Are there any other arguments against converting every miss into a push besides the lock up hanger safety?
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Eddie, it's really just conjecture why the World Rules only allow the incoming player the option when a wrongful ball is pocketed. I've seen several of these discussions on here and so far no one from the WPA rules committee has explained it.

But my guess is that they decided to do it this way after debate about the the role of the two way shot in 10 Ball (shot/safety, not shooting two balls), and I suppose they decided that the two way shot is a creative and legitimate strategy for maintaining control of the table, and therefore should be kept in the game.

Of course, with the good comes the bad. By leaving the two way shot in the game, it also allows for the slop safety on a miss. Same goes for getting rid of the rule. If you play option on ALL misses (the so called "WPA+" rules that the last SBE used and is advocated by the ABP) it eliminates the two way shot. So I surmise the WPA decided the two way shot should have a place in the game and therefore wrote the rules with this provision.

BTW, the wrongfully pocketed ball rule is still in force under the WPA+ rules in the sense that you still cannot call a safety and sink a ball. The only difference is that the incoming player has the option on ANY miss whether a ball falls or not.
 
Thanks

DogsPlayingPool said:
Eddie, it's really just conjecture why the World Rules only allow the incoming player the option when a wrongful ball is pocketed. I've seen several of these discussions on here and so far no one from the WPA rules committee has explained it.

But my guess is that they decided to do it this way after debate about the the role of the two way shot in 10 Ball (shot/safety, not shooting two balls), and I suppose they decided that the two way shot is a creative and legitimate strategy for maintaining control of the table, and therefore should be kept in the game.

Of course, with the good comes the bad. By leaving the two way shot in the game, it also allows for the slop safety on a miss. Same goes for getting rid of the rule. If you play option on ALL misses (the so called "WPA+" rules that the last SBE used and is advocated by the ABP) it eliminates the two way shot. So I surmise the WPA decided the two way shot should have a place in the game and therefore wrote the rules with this provision.

BTW, the wrongfully pocketed ball rule is still in force under the WPA+ rules in the sense that you still cannot call a safety and sink a ball. The only difference is that the incoming player has the option on ANY miss whether a ball falls or not.
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Thanks I had forgotten about the two way shot. I agree that it is more important to leave it in than trying to eliminate the lucky safe.
 
oneballeddie said:
I'm a real fan of the new 10 ball rules and anything that takes luck out of the game. But I have to say I really don't understand the illegally pocketed ball nuance. It would seem to me that any miss should convert into a push whether or not an out of order ball falls. When a player comes to the table he would have two simple options: call safe or call pocket, and then execute.

It seems the argument for the illegally pocketed ball rule hinges on the "hanging ball dead lock safety" which is indeed a crushing blow. But there are many other situations where there is a just as deadly lock up safety that does not involve pocketing a ball. I don't see the difference. And there are many situations where missing a called shot results in lucky roll. Why only cancel the lucky roll if another ball accidentally falls in?

I hear a lot of discussion about this rule including here which tells me the rules may not yet be totally baked. But I sure like the direction of taking slop and the robo-breaks out of the game.

Are there any other arguments against converting every miss into a push besides the lock up hanger safety?
Click to expand...

Not to pick on you alone but this question comes up time and again. For the life of me I cannot understand why folks can't "get" this rule. The concept is so simple that it's almost hard to explain.

JC
 
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