10 best players in the world

[sjm]

Some people's impression of the "shootout" match approach was solidified based on an earlier inferior incarnation of the approach, when a shootout occurred simply when players split the first two races to 4. That's too many shootouts.

Now you need to split two races to 4 AND get to hill-hill on the third one. That's like two runners leaning for the tape after a long run and you can't quite tell who is ahead. Importantly the shootout is conditioned on two competitors leaning into the tape.

At this point it is a feature, not a bug, to have the match decision based on something that is in both players control from there. There is a true back and forth--no luck of who came up dry or made a ball and got hooked or had a cueball kicked in or had an open table on a single game.

The best-of-3 races to four match is as discriminatory as between a straight race to 8 and 9, but closer to 9.

Yes, I was in the camp that complained about the format once used in the Predator US Pro Billiard Series, which had far too many shootots. What we saw in 2023 was a bit ridiculous. In contrast, the format used in the World Predator Pro Billiard Series, that requires that the deciding set reach double hill for a shootout to occur, has made the shootouts few and far between.

 

[sjm]

One side pocket shot got a long stare from Fedor.

I was there at the Las Vegas Open. The tables played very tough.

 

[sjm]

Just a curiosity. In most sports, after a big win you see the winner bring his kids onto the course/field during celebrations. I can't remember ever seeing that in pool.

Yup, other than Jayson Shaw and Jeanette Lee (and, needless to say, Ernesto Dominguez), few pro pool players I have ever seen brought their kids to events in which they competed.

 

[fjk]

This is a subtlety. But the FargoRate approach doesn't require or assume that a late-stage high-pressure match is somehow the same as an early-stage match in a lower-profile tournament.

Rather it assumes that averaged over your high-pressure matches, your opponents were also playing in high-pressure matches and impacted similarly.

A particularly player could be unusually affected by or unusually unaffected by that pressure, and we wouldn't capture that in any meaningful way.

Mike, FargoRate, by now, has a wealth of interesting data that would be a blast to really dig into. You might want to consider expanding into that realm.

 

[jbart65]

Thanks for the insight. I imagine it just adds another obstacle to reaching that level...especially for a game like pool...

As far as I know, the only top women's player who has a child is Han Yu. And she doesn't play or travel as much as some other top women.

I wonder what will happen pool couples like the Fillers, or the Styers. Can couples who are both among the best in their sport live a normal family life and have kids? I guess we will see.

 

[jbart65]

It's about all-around excellence. not just 9ball and 10ball titles, and we must recognize that the 9ball majors and 10ball majors are about equal in number and produce fields of similar quality.. As you suggest, 8ball, one pocket, bank pool and 14.1 all have relevance in the greatness discussion.

I concur that games other than 9 and 10 ball should be taken into account when judging a player. But only, imo, if they have had success in rotation games too. Filler, of course, has that in spades.

I really credit Filler for broadening his game to include everything. He's made a concerted effort to travel to the U.S. to play in banks pool, one pocket, straight pool. Other than a few Filipinos and the odd Euro here or there, few non US players have done this to the same degree.

And now look? Filler is one of the best bankers in the world and a supreme tactician.

 

[jbart65]

At this point it is a feature, not a bug, to have the match decision based on something that is in both players control from there. There is a true back and forth--no luck of who came up dry or made a ball and got hooked or had a cueball kicked in or had an open table on a single game.i

I have mixed views on the shootout. I do find them exciting, and yes, both players get an even chance.

Ultimately, I tend to favor whatever makes the game of pro pool more commercially successful. Such success is what will support the game and its players.

As such, credit to Predator for experimenting with new formats. The game needs to change. It can't stay stuck in the past.

The best-of-3 races to four match is as discriminatory as between a straight race to 8 and 9, but closer to 9.

It is, imo, a superior approach to a straight race to 9 largely because there is far more intermediate drama. That is, the drama for viewers is spread out better over the entire match, including the early games.

I see your point, but I am not sold on best of three races in the Predator format for the semis or final. Earlier in the event, sure. But
at the very least, I think the finals should be three of five.

I still favor longer races as the best format for major events. I find plenty of drama in the early going. In the Euro finals, I wondered: How long can Mario He keep going? And what will Mortiz do when he gets a chance?

With winner break, every mistake is magnified right from the opening rack. There is less margin for error.

Albin Ouschan made this point, inadvertently, when praising the new Predator sets format a few years ago. He said a match involving sets meant you could still win even if you fell behind by a lot early. But in a race to 9 or 11, falling behind 6-1 or so was like a death sentence.

I thought Filler's performance vs Gorst in the Las Vegas final was exceptional. But what Moritz Neuhausen did in the Euro finals, imo, was even more impressive. He had to maintain a stratospheric level of play for 11 straight matches to prevent He from getting another chance.

Incredible stuff.

 

[jokrswylde]

As far as I know, the only top women's player who has a child is Han Yu. And she doesn't play or travel as much as some other top women.

I wonder what will happen pool couples like the Fillers, or the Styers. Can couples who are both among the best in their sport live a normal family life and have kids? I guess we will see.

They would surely be superhuman if they could. I know as a normal joe with a 9-5, having kids was a huge time and energy commitment. Late night feedings, sickness, Dr. visits, trips to the park...I can't imagine trying to maintain that standard of excellence.

 

[sjm]

I really credit Filler for broadening his game to include everything. He's made a concerted effort to travel to the U.S. to play in banks pool, one pocket, straight pool. Other than a few Filipinos and the odd Euro here or there, few non US players have done this to the same degree.

One thing that has helped Filler become a great all-around player is not very well known, and that's his long-time willingness to mix it up in the action room with the superstars in the various disciplines. He didn't mind getting into a game in which he would be the underdog if he felt it would help his game.

In bank pool, in what I think was 2022, Josh played two high stakes "race to 10" sets with banking maestro Shannon Murphy. Josh won the final set double hill to break even, but he wasn't done. He knew he would be an underdog to Evan Lunda, but he also knew that mixing it up with Evan would help him to develop his bank pool game. Evan schooled him, winning a few thousand dollars, but Josh developed as a player. By 2024, that "investment" in himself paid off for Josh, as he won the Derby City banks event.

In 2019, JL Chang was the man to beat at 10ball and, in the action room, on Day 1 of the Derby, his backers offered a$30,000 game to every big-name player, including both SVB and Dennis Orcullo. The backers wanted no part of JL Chang. In the Bigfoot, JL Chang won the title over Filler in the final, but each was eliminated a little early on the Derby's final day. Frustrated that nobody had taken him up on his $30,000 challenge over the first nine days for the Derby, Chang lowered his asking price, and still, nobody was willing to try him at 10ball, not until Filler came along. Josh agreed to a race to 17 for $3,000 and managed to beat Chang in a close one with some of the finest pool I have ever seen played.

Josh' willingness to mix it up with the superstars of every discipline had a lot to do with the pedigree he managed to build.

 

[sjm]

I thought Filler's performance vs Gorst in the Las Vegas final was exceptional. But what Moritz Neuhausen did in the Euro finals, imo, was even more impressive. He had to maintain a stratospheric level of play for 11 straight matches to prevent He from getting another chance.

Yes, these matches were quite similar. Fedor was brilliant in the first set of the Las Vegas Open final, actually nailing two different bank shots in the double hill rack, one of them off a jump shot. With his back against the wall, however, Josh won eight racks in a row to close out the match and win the title. I agree that the Neuhausen effort at the European Open was even better. Mario, as Gorst had, came flying out of the gate, but when the best chances came, Moritz gave a truly breathtaking performance, denying Mario any real chance to win.

 

[Jaden]

Although they once were, the pockets are not looser in Predator events than WNT. You may judge a player based on two events (both of which are on Filler's resume), but that's ridiculous. Actually, there were extremely few shootouts in the 2026 Las Vegas Open 10ball, and I can't even remember one of them in the late rounds.

I judge a player by their record in the majors, as well as in all other events having big, elite fields, not just the WNT majors. Filler, at 28 years old. already has 3 world championship, one in 9ball, one in 8ball. and a World Team championship. He also has a silver at the World 10ball. He has 3 China Open 9ball titles and numerous Predator 10ball titles. He has won the American 14.1, the Buffalo Billiards 1-pocket, and has double digit Euro-tour titles. He even has a Derby City bank pool title. Every one of these is a large, elite field event. Filler is a superstar in every discipline and the greatest mass producer of major titles since Mike Sigel.

He stands alone as the greatest player of this generation and is already in the conversation for best pool player of all-time. FYI, he has not lost to Gorst in either 9ball or 10ball in close to two years and has beat him three times in the last three months alone (Mosconi Cup, Derby City 9ball, Las Vegas Open 10ball). You have to be very delusional to rate Gorst above Filler given that he virtually never beats him at rotation games.

He's not even close to the greatest pool player of all time. Shane just beat him (not just in the "exhibition" also in the us open. He's the best player right now. Although his showing in the euro open left a bit to be desired.

Although I didn't like his early attitude and antics, he's getting to be my favorite player, but that doesn't put him in the conversation for goat. more like GFN, greatest for now.

Efren is still the goat, followed by Shane and Earl. Give Filler another decade and he'll likely be in the conversation if there even is still a conversation at the rate he's going.

 

[skogstokig]

I concur that games other than 9 and 10 ball should be taken into account when judging a player. But only, imo, if they have had success in rotation games too. Filler, of course, has that in spades.

I really credit Filler for broadening his game to include everything. He's made a concerted effort to travel to the U.S. to play in banks pool, one pocket, straight pool. Other than a few Filipinos and the odd Euro here or there, few non US players have done this to the same degree.

And now look? Filler is one of the best bankers in the world and a supreme tactician.

one pocket is his favorite game.

 

[Kris_b1104]

He's not even close to the greatest pool player of all time. Shane just beat him (not just in the "exhibition" also in the us open. He's the best player right now. Although his showing in the euro open left a bit to be desired.

Although I didn't like his early attitude and antics, he's getting to be my favorite player, but that doesn't put him in the conversation for goat. more like GFN, greatest for now.

Efren is still the goat, followed by Shane and Earl. Give Filler another decade and he'll likely be in the conversation if there even is still a conversation at the rate he's going.

Not even close? I think he is pretty close after the 3 you named.

Who would you put after Efren, SVB, and Earl? Surely Filler is Top 5 at least based on his accolades so far. But I agree that more time needs to be passed before Mt. Rushmore conversation, as he is still young and may not have even hit his prime yet.

 

[CanadianGuy]

at the moment i view fargo as the closest thing to a best/most accurate list

i got a tier one list with 8 guys,

SVB, Filler, Gorst, Yapp, Ko Bros, Kaci, Biado

I would bet these guys against anybody outside that group all day, an 845 fargo avg between that group

I can see Yapp emerging as the best when all said and done

 

[Jaden]

Not even close? I think he is pretty close after the 3 you named.

Who would you put after Efren, SVB, and Earl? Surely Filler is Top 5 at least based on his accolades so far. But I agree that more time needs to be passed before Mt. Rushmore conversation, as he is still young and may not have even hit his prime yet.

I'd put filler, Sigel, and a decade or so ago I would've included Archer, but that's the nature of the beast, who has the staying power is the biggest question.

 

[maha]

He's not even close to the greatest pool player of all time. Shane just beat him (not just in the "exhibition" also in the us open. He's the best player right now. Although his showing in the euro open left a bit to be desired.

Although I didn't like his early attitude and antics, he's getting to be my favorite player, but that doesn't put him in the conversation for goat. more like GFN, greatest for now.

Efren is still the goat, followed by Shane and Earl. Give Filler another decade and he'll likely be in the conversation if there even is still a conversation at the rate he's going.

got to include all decades of players not just what a person has seen in his lifetime.
earl might have been the greastest 9 ball player ever or close to it but was not all around.
i do agree with efren as the best all around ever.

and best of all time also needs to mean time. as a player that has 5 or even 10 top years is really just a flash in the pan if he doesnt last.
efren did just that. earl did in 9 ball. and many in the past played well into close to retirement years.