100 balls or 100 break?

[vapoolplayer]

I couldn't agree more. In fact, that is exactly what I said to someone who argued that 9ball is harder because any top 10 9-ball player can run 150 and out...quality counts as much in straight pool as quantity!

-Roger

you argued that any top 9 baller couldn't just run 150 and out i hope......

 

[TheOne]

Great Thread

I have had a 139 clearance in snooker and as of a couple of weeks ago 81 in 14:1. I played snooker full time when I left school but I have only played in not more than a few hours a week for almost 10 years now. During that time I probably made a century once every 2 months or so. However I just missed out on a 100 after 3 days of straight pool so I would say that a snooker 100 is overall harder to acheive. But that is very general.

I find 14:1 fascinating as a practice tool and it has elements that are harder than snooker. Obviously the break ball is the crucial shot and as already mentioned finding patterns and breaking balls the "best way" and having insurance balls make it difficult in its own way However having said that, personally I find the hardest challenge the concentration factor. I think for a snooker player it is ridiculously easy to run 15 balls, the only real challenge seems to be staying focused and leaving the right angle on the break ball.

I would be interested to know what the top high runs of the Pro's are. Personally I would have thought that this game would be efrens strongest game, since it relies little on a power break and is mainly cueball control with a little "magic" needed sometimes when things ge sticky - anyone know what his best is?

Anyway, I'm off to rack and roll now for a couple of hours to se if I can break the 100 (I haven't had another go at it since my last post as I had to leave Thailand to get a new passport and visa). Manilla is great and 9 ball tables everywhere - still haven't tracked down the top Pro's yet. If I can find Efren I don't mind donating some modest amounts of cash just to play the great man!

PS
I would say that a 200+ run in 14:1 is similar in difficulty to a 100+ break in snooker. I know many very good snooker players that have played for years and never quite broke the 100 break barrier. But I'm sure they could make a 100 ball run at 14:1 if they played it for a fairly short period of time.

 

[bruin70]

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
I would say that a 200+ run in 14:1 is similar in difficulty to a 100+ break in snooker..................

now THAT makes the most sense yet, since the games are so vastly different, and players are brought up differently playing these games.

 

[fxskater]

The 100 break in snooker is tougher IMO. My high
run is 88 balls in 14.1, my high snooker break is
39 and I'm just as proud of both runs equally.
I would be much more ecstatic if I had 100 break in
snooker than if I ran 100 balls in 14.1

Hmmmm, you need to play a little more snooker

I have played snooker a few times, less than 30. My high run is about 40 and it would be fairly easy to get quite a bit higher than that. The key is getting on the black ball with an angle. In straight pool pocketing balls is dead easy but playing into a break spot and pocketing the ball, and getting a decent break seems a little harder. My high run in straight pool after about 10 tries is only about 30 (got into trouble on third break). I played the opening break safe and ran from where i got a chance after pocketing a few balls. To do this 8 consecutive times seems more out of reach than getting shape on the black (7 ball) in snooker 10 times (i say 10 cause your gonna take a different coloured ball here and there. Snooker also depends largely who you are playing. Getting a 100 break wouldn't be as hard if someone broke the stack wide open. In straight pool even if someone breaks the stack, you gotta do it yourself 7 more times. I think the break in snooker is slightly easier.

 

[hobokenapa]

Anyway, I'm off to rack and roll now for a couple of hours to se if I can break the 100.

So ... did you make the 100? So much talk of 100 on this thread .. no pressure or anything

I saw your posting an another thread, and I hoped you'd pick this one up.

 

[sjm]

I would say that a 200+ run in 14:1 is similar in difficulty to a 100+ break in snooker. I know many very good snooker players that have played for years and never quite broke the 100 break barrier. But I'm sure they could make a 100 ball run at 14:1 if they played it for a fairly short period of time.

Strongly disagree, unless we're talking about really loose equipment at the pool table, and even then, I'd equate 150 in 14.1 with a snooker century. It's undeniably true that those with second-rate table management can make long runs on loose equipment, but tighten those pockets up and table management becomes far more important. To a point, it explains why all three of Sigel, Rempe and Varner, who are all among the most accomplished straight poolers ever, had so little success in the loose pocketed 2000 US Open 14.1 championships in NYC. Loose pockets change the game dramatically. Anyone who can run 100 on a diamond pro table would have no problem managing a 100 break in snooker. Just my opinion.

 

[TheOne]

Hi SJM, nice to hear from you again. I did change my mind from 150 to 200 but I would say its somewhere between the two, BUT a 100 break in snooker is definately much hard than a 100 ball run.

My 4th try...
Last night I went to Rack and Roll in Manila which has some fantastic (imitation I'm told) crown tables. They run quite fast and straight. After a few racks last night I started to put a run together and eventually made it to 92 with perfect position on my break ball which was a few inches to the right of the pack and the white was in the centre of the table )near snooker blue spot). After the guy who was racking the table nearly moved my break ball after dropping the triangle on the rack I cued up for the break. I have to admit I started thinking about this thread etc and thought that once I break the 100 I might be able to string a real big score together. I potted the break ball but finished lousey and then missed a tricky combo! Agggh I screamed swinging my cue as the ball hung on the lip refusing to drop.

Lessson learnt: don't count your balls before theyre sunk LOL! But that's what makes it hard, its more of a mental game than anything else, must concentrate every second. Anyway, i'll have another go soon, but new PB of 93 from 4 tries

 

[sjm]

.... Anyway, i'll have another go soon, but new PB of 93 from 4 tries

Nice run, The One, keep the faith and 100 is surely just around the corner.

Bet you're loving it, straight pool is such a fascinating game, and, as you seem to understand in full, the continual puzzle solving that running racks requires really challenges you to maintain your highest level of concentration.

 

[TheOne]

Cheers SJM, I will keep going, can't wait to start playing for more than a few hours at a time. Would love to string severa days of long sessions together to see if that helped. Anyway, I did just have my best session of pool yet, if only 8 ball and 9 ball. I played for about 5 hours in Rack and Roll in Manilla and met some good guys. I played 3 race to 9's against a couple of locals and a guy from Taiwan and I managed to win them, but not for cash. I'm still trying to track down the king himself Mr Magic! I may be a step closer tonight but hopefully I will get the chance to play him and make a donation for the pleasure before i have to leave.

My breaking and banking still suck though, I'll have to look you up the next time I'm in NYC for some tips

 

[bud green]

A lot depends on the table; I play on a snooker table with pockets designed for English billiards (they're tighter than regular snooker pockets) and a lot of shots near the rail just won't go. I've just started practising on it and have only ran a 73 but even that was with a breakout that left easy red shots.

For natural shotmakers, I think snooker would be easier to get 100. If the table is laying easy with the reds, the colors add up pretty quick. Straight pool requires a little luck on the break shot and balls cluster more on the smaller table. I don't hardly practice straight pool but when I have I noticed that you have to be precise when moving around the pack or one inch too far and you're screwed...snooker tables have more breathing room but obviously require good eyes...some old timers would have no chance to run 100 on a snooker table but I do think they could run 100 at 14.1 by managing their runout well.

Old Guys with Bad Eyes= 14.1 is you're only hope for 100.

Young Guys not Wise = Hot day on the snooker table best bet. 14.1 harder than it looks when you start learning it, and 99 shots with a chance of getting bad shape,scratching,miscueing,etc...

 

[hobokenapa]

I potted the break ball but finished lousey and then missed a tricky combo!

As a player totally new to the game, I'm impressed by your ability to leave a shot after the break so consistently. As I stated in the first post of this thread, I am a B player with many runs in the 30s with the potential to get to 100 (I think). The hardest part for me is that third rack and knowing WHERE the balls go after a break shot. Without that knowledge, it's 'luck' for me if I end up with a shot (as you have done here after 93). Have you developed a strategy, or do you have the cueing to just smash the pack wide open on the break ball ?

Also, when you are next in NYC, do post to this thread. I would certainly be interested in watching, and learning from, a master player. Amsterdam has Straight Pool Friday nights.

 

[predator]

TheOne and others, do you count balls in your head while going for the run? I hope not, because if you do, you're very likely going to choke trying to break your personal records no matter how good you are...
Also, the score can be difficult to track...

I suggest writing score on a piece of paper like this:

There's a single column with number of balls currently on the table, which of course starts with 15. As you make it to the last break ball, you add 14 to the column...

Let's say your opponent made a mess of opening break leaving the table to you...so now you begin to play without worrying how much you have made...

Number of balls:
15 - you run first rack up until last ball and add 14, thus there are now
29 - balls as you clear the second rack and add another 14...
43 - balls now...things are looking good but suddenly you miss and scratch

Now what? How much you have made?

You count actual 10 balls on the table. Now you write 10 into the column which looks like:
15
29
43
10

To get your score, subtract 43-10 which is 33, but you still must not forget the foul because of the scratch. Therefore, the actual score is 32 which then adds to your overall score, etc. That would be one of my typical runs where I choke on the 3rd rack as usual. If you don't have semaphores or referees counting for you, this method is the next best thing. It doesn't matter whether you can make 3 or 333 balls.

Me and my friend always keep the score this way. Of course other players in the poolhall not very familiar with 14.1 have no idea what we're doing.

 

[Williebetmore]

Agggh I screamed swinging my cue as the ball hung on the lip refusing to drop.

Lessson learnt: don't count your balls before theyre sunk LOL! But that's what makes it hard, its more of a mental game than anything else, must concentrate every second. Anyway, i'll have another go soon, but new PB of 93 from 4 tries

One,
I'm jealous, what a great accomplishment. Now imagine a 5 x 10 table, tight pockets, slow napped cloth, mud balls in a rack that won't break apart that much even if you hit it as hard as you can. Welcome to the world of Greenleaf and Mosconi.

Feel free to stop in Indy if/when you are travelling through (save some money on meals, room, and table time), straight pool is still alive here.

 

[sjm]

Cheers SJM, I will keep going, can't wait to start playing for more than a few hours at a time. Would love to string severa days of long sessions together to see if that helped. Anyway, I did just have my best session of pool yet, if only 8 ball and 9 ball. I played for about 5 hours in Rack and Roll in Manilla and met some good guys. I played 3 race to 9's against a couple of locals and a guy from Taiwan and I managed to win them, but not for cash. I'm still trying to track down the king himself Mr Magic! I may be a step closer tonight but hopefully I will get the chance to play him and make a donation for the pleasure before i have to leave.

My breaking and banking still suck though, I'll have to look you up the next time I'm in NYC for some tips

I'm enjoying your story, so keep it coming. If you come to NYC, let me know in advance and we'll arrange to play some. As for tips for your game, if you make it to NYC, the guy you need to see is reigning BCA Open champion Tony Robles, and it could probably be arranged.

 

[TheOne]

One,
I'm jealous, what a great accomplishment. Now imagine a 5 x 10 table, tight pockets, slow napped cloth, mud balls in a rack that won't break apart that much even if you hit it as hard as you can. Welcome to the world of Greenleaf and Mosconi.

Feel free to stop in Indy if/when you are travelling through (save some money on meals, room, and table time), straight pool is still alive here.

Thanks willie, I'm not sure how long I will have in the states but I will post ahead of time. As for the heavy balls I can only imagine, but it was the same for snooker when Joe Davis was sweeping all before him with ivory balls I guess. Sounds amazing what they did but I guess you can only compare if you played with that equipment for 20 years or more? Funny story though, when I was on a snooker sponsorship some time ago somebody at my club stole the black ball of the snooker table I practised on everyday. The owner was a little tight and instead of buying a new set he SPRAYED A SPARE RED BALL BLACK!!! The table was already extreemly slow even if the pockets where not the tightest but I did have my highest break of 139 under these conditions. Sounds crazy looing back, after a while small red dots started to appear!

 

[TheOne]

As a player totally new to the game, I'm impressed by your ability to leave a shot after the break so consistently. As I stated in the first post of this thread, I am a B player with many runs in the 30s with the potential to get to 100 (I think). The hardest part for me is that third rack and knowing WHERE the balls go after a break shot. Without that knowledge, it's 'luck' for me if I end up with a shot (as you have done here after 93). Have you developed a strategy, or do you have the cueing to just smash the pack wide open on the break ball ?

Also, when you are next in NYC, do post to this thread. I would certainly be interested in watching, and learning from, a master player. Amsterdam has Straight Pool Friday nights.

Well this what i have been doing but since I'm playing it by ear it may not be the best advice? After the break shot I pick out 1 or possibly two balls that make the best break ball. Then I go about clearing all the balls around them, about half way through the rack and sometimes earlier I look for 1 or two balls that would make position on my chosen break ball easier. for example if the break ball is just to the side of the pack then ideally a ball into the side pocket with a stop shot would be the easiest way to get good position on the break ball, prob a simple stop shot. Even if you are capable of playing position on your break ball of 2 or 3 cushions it is a less pecentage shot and once in a while you will end up with the wrong angle.

Incidently I would be interested to learn what the pref best break shots are? The ones that jump to mind for me are:

1) ball just to the side of the rack and cb in centre of table
2) ball underneath the rack with cb parallel with it
3) ball in between the rack and the side rail and white near the rail (cutting it back into blind pocket - not my fav!)

I don't particulary lick leaving balls over the centre or corner pocket to break the pack as this seems a little wild and easier to lose the cb? Let me know if I'm missing something?

Personally I like the ball near the pack and punching it in with centre left or a little draw.

 

[TheOne]

TheOne and others, do you count balls in your head while going for the run? I hope not, because if you do, you're very likely going to choke trying to break your personal records no matter how good you are...
Also, the score can be difficult to track...
QUOTE]

Interesting point pred, the first time I ever made a ton at snooker was when somebody else was counting and I didn't know I had made it! I made a couple more in the next couple of weeks after I had broke the barrier! When I was in Thailand the pool hall had a white board and I started to write them down in "14's" as you suggest (although I did add them up when I messed up on 81 the other week lol - the total was building and I was curious But the other night in Manilla I counted in my head, something I have always done in snooker as you can't always rely on your opponent have good arithmatic skills

 

[TheOne]

Nice run, The One, keep the faith and 100 is surely just around the corner.

Bet you're loving it, straight pool is such a fascinating game, and, as you seem to understand in full, the continual puzzle solving that running racks requires really challenges you to maintain your highest level of concentration.

Yes sjm I am, but still frustrated that I haven't met the magician. I'm still learning 9 ball and I have a long way to go but I have played 8 ball for a long time and think its prob my best game - what better person to play at 8 ball the the world champion! The reason I like 8 and straight pool I think is because you get to "pick your pattern", I like my chances of running out when I get to chose my own path like 14:1 and to a lesser extent 8 ball.

Tony sounds like a great guy and it would be good to learn from him, esp as he seems to like straight pool as a practice tool. I think you also said he had broke the 200 barrier. 100 is a good acheivment and all but I think 200+ is when it starts to become a little special.

 

[mjantti]

Incidently I would be interested to learn what the pref best break shots are? The ones that jump to mind for me are:

1) ball just to the side of the rack and cb in centre of table
2) ball underneath the rack with cb parallel with it
3) ball in between the rack and the side rail and white near the rail (cutting it back into blind pocket - not my fav!)

I don't particulary lick leaving balls over the centre or corner pocket to break the pack as this seems a little wild and easier to lose the cb? Let me know if I'm missing something?

Number 1 is my favourite and also favourite of many pros. Also, 3 isn't bad. Or, if you have a ball to the side of the rack and quite high, you can also shoot the break in the side and top spin will get your cueball near the center of the table off the rack. I've heard Greenleaf preferred a side pocket break. Next is #2 of your choices, you can control the cueball nicely with a hit under the pack. But, don't leave too much angle, you won't necessarily get out of the short rail. Pros don't like shooting a break ball near the pocket, they prefer having cueball hit the pack without hitting a cushion first. Still, if you haven't got a choice, here a couple of useful breaks from a ball near the pocket: (wei table at http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html)

With this, aim for the left part of the rack (in the wei diagram, bottom part). Cut thin and use low left. And don't shoot too hard, you might have cueball hit the left long rail and return to the pack and leave you nothing. If you shoot slow, you should have 14-ball in the side or either of the far corners. And with a slower shot, you'll have more control on the angle the cueball takes after hitting the short rail.

START(
%AD2D3%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%IL7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%PW4E2%UE4E6%VV2E0%WI0P2%XC4F3
%YI1Y6%ZI3Q0%[L9T5%\J6R4%eA7b1
)END

Same idea, but shooting the break ball in the side. Again, don't try to shoot too hard, you'll just mess up the angles. And try to hit the left part of the rack to avoid getting stuck behind the rack.

START(
%AY8E7%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%IL7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%PZ1O6%UU3D2%VY0F3%WD1J5%XT3C6
%YI2P7%ZC1K1%[L9T5%\J6R4%]Y2G3%^Y9N7%eA7b1
)END

This is actually quite good break, but you need to have a good idea of the "natural angle" concept so that you'll get a dead hit in either of the 2 head balls on rack. If you hit the side of the rack, you might scratch in the corner. The break ball needs to lay nicely and if the natural angle is there, you might leave the cut angle much thinner. Just punch the cueball in, you don't need draw to get the cueball out of the rack if you shoot hard enough. And you can shoot this break quite hard. If you use draw, you might draw the rock in the side.

START(
%A^4H2%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%IL7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ4Q9%OJ5M0%Pe8M2%U\4D4%V]8G5%WO5O2%X^4I3
%]_6I6%^d8L6%eB5a6
)END

I'm not a pro or anything like that, but I hope these diagrams will help you on your quest to a 14.1 century. I'm on the same quest and still 15 balls short of it...

 

[sjm]

Tony sounds like a great guy and it would be good to learn from him, esp as he seems to like straight pool as a practice tool. I think you also said he had broke the 200 barrier. 100 is a good acheivment and all but I think 200+ is when it starts to become a little special.

Yes, Robles has run over 200 three times against me alone. I'd guess he has ten 200+ runs in the last ten years. His high run is 267, which is, coincidentally, Mika Immonen's high run, too.