10ball rule question

Rocket354

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Playing a game of 10ball. I break and make the one and eight. I shoot in the two, three, four and five. While evaluating the table before my shot on the six I realize (and at the same time, my opponent realizes) the one ball is still on the table; I made the nine-ball on the break. What happens?
 
Answer for BCAPL and WSR

Given the exact details as listed - that neither player realized the error until Player A is preparing to shoot the 6-ball - the answer is the same under either BCAPL or WSR: BIH to Player B at that point.

There were three fouls committed previously (on the 2-ball, 3-ball and 4-ball), but none were called and therefore, under both BCAPL and WSR, are not enforcable. However, the foul for contacting the 5-ball first is still in effect, and should be enforced once the players realize the situation.

Applicable are BCAPL Rule 1.23, WSR Rule 6 preamble. In BCAPL play, the failure to call the previous fouls is specifically rendered irrelevant in this case by the second sentence of BCAPL 1.23. Although WSR has no such provision, neither is there any allowance for just ignoring the fourth foul and applying a different resolution.

That having been said, there is also the good-ole-boys option of just replaying the game, but that is not supported by the BCAPL Rules or WSR.

Can't answer for other rule sets. :smile:

Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net

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Thanks! Now you said neither player noticed the error. Does that mean that if the shooter noticed but was trying to get away with something, then it would probably just be a forfeit game, right? And if the other player noticed and figured he'd let the shooter run them out a bit before calling foul in order to get more advantageous position, then what would happen?
 
Based on the rules mentioned, if the shooter were to recognize his error and legally pocket the 1-ball, he would be permitted to stay and continue his turn. The shooters opponent should be careful (yes, he has the option of allowing the run to continue) of allowing the shooter to remain at the table because the shooter could realize his error and "fix" it. Quite a rare event, but I have observed this scenario. I could not tell if it was intentional or not.
 
Don't know about the "official" rules, but last few times I have seen that, the players did a re-rack. This was during money matches so there was something at stake, but it was the fair call I think. I've also been involved in games when the 9,8,10, whatever was made on the break, neither player noticed, and we played from there. Soon as one of us noticed what happened, we'd re-rack and play a new game.

This also came up when a newer player to the game took ball-in hand when he should not have, and actually played a shot before anyone realized what he did. Both players agreed that since this was a new player (league not tourney) the "fair" thing to do was to re-play the game.
 
fouls

So, if both players realize the one ball is still on the table and are discussing the issue, but the shooter quickly steps up and pockets the one ball before his opponent actiually calls the foul.........does the shooter stay at the table and the error is no longer enforcable since he has made a legal hit?

Does simply discussing an obvious foul constitute the calling of a foul?

What do the rules say about that?

Just curious.
 
That is an interesting point, that probably happens alot more often than we want to admit. It is nice to think the shooter is honest and if we call a foul they know the rules and admit if a foul was committed. I have called fouls on double hits many times and since my opponent did not understand the rule or know how to recognize it, they continued shooting.

For this example, it should be pretty obvious that if the shooter just pocketed a ball and the 1-ball is sitting there, it was a foul and he should surrender his turn and provide BIH.
 
Now departing from the OP situation to address other questions/observations:

The shooters opponent should be careful (yes, he has the option of allowing the run to continue) of allowing the shooter to remain at the table because the shooter could realize his error and "fix" it.

Yes, there is danger in allowing the run to continue. If the 1-ball is played and the shooter pulls the trigger on the 1-ball, Player A would continue now since the 5-ball foul was not called.

...if the shooter noticed but was trying to get away with something, then it would probably just be a forfeit game, right?...

Possibly, but the only way I see it playing out that way is if the shooter basically admitted to willingly committing the earlier fouls (2-ball, 3-ball, 4-ball,) then fouled on the 5-ball and just turned over BIH on the spot. In that case, yes, I would rule UC.

At least in my quick analysis, that is not at all the same as allowing the shooter that does not know he is fouling to continue. If the latter happened and Player A whined because the previous fouls were not called, my simple response would be that they were at fault from the beginning, so they really have no leg to stand on.

...And if the other player noticed and figured he'd let the shooter run them out a bit before calling foul in order to get more advantageous position, then what would happen?

There is no rule that says that a player (as opposed to a referee) must call a foul when it occurs. Again, - if Player A whined because the previous fouls were not called, my simple response would be that they were at fault from the beginning, so they really have no leg to stand on. You can make an argument that it is not completely unreasonable to consider UC, but there is always a danger, since by doing so you are essentially denying Player B the opportunity to play by the letter of the rules.

Can it be considered a twist on the true intent of the "fouls not called" provisions? Maybe, but still legal nevertheless.

In both of these cases, the results of the referee's interview of the players must be taken into account. If a player gives a clear impression of UC behavior, as opposed to just taking advantage of the loopholes in the rules, then blast away.

...but the shooter quickly steps up and pockets the one ball before his opponent actiually calls the foul...

That would be at the discretion of a referee, but would surely be called UC under the circumstances. The "quick" action is all the evidence you really need of UC intent:

Ref: "And, Player A, how many other times during this event have you dived at a ball with no PSR and fired a shot off in 2.7 seconds?"

Player A: "Uh...."


End of discussion.

Does simply discussing an obvious foul constitute the calling of a foul? What do the rules say about that?

The rules discuss stopping play, which clearly contemplates at least the suspicion of a foul. Play has been stopped, so a resolution has to be achieved before you continue.

Buddy
 
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What happens??!!

Really???

Come on now...

You pick up the rock, hand it over....smile,laugh it off, and be pissed at yourself if you are laying cash.

You don't need a rule book for this one imo.
 
What happens??!!

Really???

Come on now...

You pick up the rock, hand it over....smile,laugh it off, and be pissed at yourself if you are laying cash.

You don't need a rule book for this one imo.

I agree, but to be fair I've played a fair bit of BCA 8ball and there's a rule there that if player A is stripes, then hits a solid ball in and then continues to hit solids, he "takes over" solids. I didn't know if there was an analogous rule to this situation, so I was just wondering what the official ruling would be.

Muchas Gracias!
 
I agree, but to be fair I've played a fair bit of BCA 8ball and there's a rule there that if player A is stripes, then hits a solid ball in and then continues to hit solids, he "takes over" solids.

In 8-Ball, that rule went away in BCAPL in 2007 and in WSR in 2008. It is now a re-rack in both rule sets if the foul is not called after the first shot at the incorrect group.

Buddy
 
My only question is if you made the 1 and 8 on the break, how did the 1 be on the table later?....I'd have a mechanic look at the ball return.
 
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