Backpocket 1500
AzB Active Member
Old Irish veneer colors.
110 Year Old Patient Arrived At My Clinic
- Thread starter Chopdoc
- Start date
There we were having a nice time hanging out talking cues and you go and mention my wife....
There we were having a nice time hanging out talking cues and you go and mention my wife....
LOL, sorry Doc, but couldn't help myself. You walked into it.
Wood often leads to precarious thoughts.
All the best,
WW
LOL, sorry Doc, but couldn't help myself. You walked into it.
Wood often leads to precarious thoughts.
All the best,
WW
No worries.
Indeed precarious thoughts.
Just don't let my wife know what the cue is worth...I think she would off me for less.
No worries.
Indeed precarious thoughts.
Just don't let my wife know what the cue is worth...I think she would off me for less.
What is your opinion of worth in todays market?
Substantially more than I paid. Substantially less than I would want. :grin-square:
I hate value discussions because someone always feels like they got their dick stepped on...but I'll entertain the notion.
I have no grand illusions. Perhaps a little North of what a nice Ebony Hoppe Pro would fetch? That kind of range anyway. Definitely would be bigger if it were ebony.
The real value for me is in the find and the pride of ownership, being the caretaker of a little piece of history. It's a really nice example. And being able to discuss it with friends and associates that appreciate such things.
I will play it.
This week I am taking antiques to the pool hall to play, but maybe not this one. I am planning to play a 9 ball tournament with nothing but antiques. I have my player lined up I think, still figuring out what I will beak with. I even have a shorty to use as a jump cue and I have my masse cue. The break cue is tougher.
Should be a fun outing.
Anyway, this one really isn't a conversion material cue, that's a slightly different market I think. This is an antique collectible. It would be sacrilege to convert it...though some might want to. It is a very desirable cue for conversion IMHO. In the hands of a leading maker it would make a really stunning conversion worth good money.
There are a number of interesting discussions on these cues in the forums and elsewhere. I am no expert on anything but medicine and women...OK maybe my wife...scratch that she's a mystery..., my feeling is that this is an early one, that's why I said 110 years old in the title. And the condition is astounding.
Here is an interesting AE Came cue of the same genre and era. They did their research as far as value. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-pool-cues/283115840416?hash=item41eb04e3a0:g:R4oAAOSwp7Rbe3lu They also have Paradise, Palmer, and a couple cases for sale.
They priced it strong, but not crazy.
.
I hate value discussions because someone always feels like they got their dick stepped on...but I'll entertain the notion.
I have no grand illusions. Perhaps a little North of what a nice Ebony Hoppe Pro would fetch? That kind of range anyway. Definitely would be bigger if it were ebony.
The real value for me is in the find and the pride of ownership, being the caretaker of a little piece of history. It's a really nice example. And being able to discuss it with friends and associates that appreciate such things.
I will play it.
This week I am taking antiques to the pool hall to play, but maybe not this one. I am planning to play a 9 ball tournament with nothing but antiques. I have my player lined up I think, still figuring out what I will beak with. I even have a shorty to use as a jump cue and I have my masse cue. The break cue is tougher.
Should be a fun outing.
Anyway, this one really isn't a conversion material cue, that's a slightly different market I think. This is an antique collectible. It would be sacrilege to convert it...though some might want to. It is a very desirable cue for conversion IMHO. In the hands of a leading maker it would make a really stunning conversion worth good money.
There are a number of interesting discussions on these cues in the forums and elsewhere. I am no expert on anything but medicine and women...OK maybe my wife...scratch that she's a mystery..., my feeling is that this is an early one, that's why I said 110 years old in the title. And the condition is astounding.
Here is an interesting AE Came cue of the same genre and era. They did their research as far as value. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-pool-cues/283115840416?hash=item41eb04e3a0:g:R4oAAOSwp7Rbe3lu They also have Paradise, Palmer, and a couple cases for sale.
They priced it strong, but not crazy.
.
Last edited:
Cost of bullet: 0.50
Cost of cremation: 600.00
Cost of death certificate: 12.00
Cost of hiring two college kids with a truck to haul Doc's crap out of the house: 100.00 (and that's high)
So, if the value of the cue is more than $712.50, then I think Doc got it right, with the playful supposition of the wife offing him.
It's more than $712.50.
All the best,
WW
Cost of cremation: 600.00
Cost of death certificate: 12.00
Cost of hiring two college kids with a truck to haul Doc's crap out of the house: 100.00 (and that's high)
So, if the value of the cue is more than $712.50, then I think Doc got it right, with the playful supposition of the wife offing him.
It's more than $712.50.
All the best,
WW
I appreciate a man who understands matrimony and math.
Her embroidery machines are worth more than my Harleys...by a wide margin. And I have a walking foot commercial sewing machine sitting here doing nothing when I should be making cue cases.
She has reminded me more than once that my body is worth somewhat more than what I would like on the open market for parts.
This cue came with the original case in good condition. That, and $1.50 will get me a good cup of coffee.
The fact remains that me and my stuff are worth more if I am dead. And the red head knows it. I sleep with one eye open.
.
Her embroidery machines are worth more than my Harleys...by a wide margin. And I have a walking foot commercial sewing machine sitting here doing nothing when I should be making cue cases.
She has reminded me more than once that my body is worth somewhat more than what I would like on the open market for parts.
This cue came with the original case in good condition. That, and $1.50 will get me a good cup of coffee.
The fact remains that me and my stuff are worth more if I am dead. And the red head knows it. I sleep with one eye open.
.
IMHO I think they may be asking crazy $ since it is advertised as not straight. If the butt is warped that could be a big issue. If it's just the shaft, depending where the shaft warp(s) is/are, that could possibly be taken care of but the butt no so much. If it's joint facing that's not a big deal.
Even though I dont collect early era cues I would think the normal criteria for valuing cues in general would still apply.
If your cue is sound and straight it would be MUCH more valuable and desirable to me and just about any other collector I know.
Last edited:
Granted their buy it now price is a bit crazy. Their starting price is not crazy I think...more like optimistic. Indeed they say not perfectly straight. What do they mean? I dunno. Could be joint facing, could be a banana.
I was just referencing an example. Certainly it is only an asking price.
The normal criteria apply to an extent, of course. "Condition is everything." But if you say "I want to buy an AE Cane cue at least 100 years old, four splice with veneers and a wedge...today"....how much will you pay? If you want it perfect, can you even find one? Sure, call around. We have been around enough, we can find one. Price is another matter.
If you want a Gus, Barry, or George cue, you can buy one today. Straight. No question, they are for sale.
As I said, someone always feels like they got their dick stepped on. :wink:
Mine is not for sale. So if someone offers two grand it still isn't for sale. You would truly have to be crazy to get it off me at this point. But obviously, no sane person is offering two grand.
I do have real offers. They approach starting price of the cue I referenced. So I feel comfy saying it is worth at least a grand and likely a little more. Cash talks, everything else walks. Discussion of it is just metal masturbation.
It ain't the Mona Lisa, and it ain't a Bushka. I have no illusions. But it is a cool cue that I was happy to find and am happy to own. That's it. That's all. The dollar value is almost immaterial to me, except that there is no way I would pay anything near what the market wants. I am a bargain hunter. It's just part of the game for me. And not for the flip profit. I don't flip cues. And not to rip anybody off at all, I told the person I bought it from exactly what I thought of the value in much more detail than I am saying here. Why? It was our business. Here? It's just talk. The last cue I sold I broke even on because a friend wanted it...and it was sold flat out cheap.
So I go right back to the beginning. Where do I put the value? Substantially more than I paid. Substantially less than I would want. :grin-square:
I am just here in the gallery discussing the cue. It ain't the for sale forum. That's where such matters are definitively settled. Or behind closed doors. :smile:
.
I was just curios where these cues "sit" in the market. How desirable they are and such. You're one who likes these kind of pieces so I thought I'd get your perspective. You delivered. I appreciate it...
Cool.
It is a strange market sometimes. If antique dealers get ahold of them all of a sudden they want 2 or 3 grand. Most of them know nothing about cues.
In general, the holy grail is the 360, but there are others similar by other makers that are more rare.
The most I have seen a single antique cue go for at public auction was $17,000, and that was a heavily inlaid 360 in a presentation case with provenance.
Provenance can add value. This cue has none.
A cue like this ends up with a value where there is a huge density in the market...many, many cues of all types in that price range. Production, custom, antique, and otherwise.
It is a strange market sometimes. If antique dealers get ahold of them all of a sudden they want 2 or 3 grand. Most of them know nothing about cues.
In general, the holy grail is the 360, but there are others similar by other makers that are more rare.
The most I have seen a single antique cue go for at public auction was $17,000, and that was a heavily inlaid 360 in a presentation case with provenance.
Provenance can add value. This cue has none.
A cue like this ends up with a value where there is a huge density in the market...many, many cues of all types in that price range. Production, custom, antique, and otherwise.
I have a question for you experienced collectors. How do you know that an antique cue such as this has not been refinished 50 years ago? I'm not saying this one has been. I just wonder when you look at such an old cue in such pristine condition how do you really know? I mean, they weren't exactly using clear coat in 1950 so it seems it might be hard to know. Was it just not common practice to redo cues back in the day?
The lack of commonly available tooling made it uncommon. Only the Masters had any ability.
Now, lots of guys "restore" cues.
Back in the day, let's say prior to the 70s, cues were almost never restored. Cues were commodities, almost like nails or guns. You used them, and you didn't restore them.
Cue restoring came about sometime in the 80s, when the cue market went way upbeat.
By the way, the cue here has not been restored, in my opinion. The pearl or pearl-like wedge is shiny, but the wood shows its originality. It looks to have been given a lacquer finish at the start, and that's pretty much how it is today. That is, given the pictures.
On the question of how do you know, it helps to know the differences from the modern two part finish, from a polyurethane, to an epoxy, to a unique such as Fabulon, to an old lacquer finish. They all look a bit different, and those done in their respective eras should show it.
All the best,
WW
Although possible, it just isn't likely for one thing. If damaged they were likely disposed of back then.
Being familiar with the materials and finished helps. The more you see and touch the more you know.
I have a 100 year old Brunswick that has had the wrap replaced with modern pressed linen. I knew it when I bought it but I got it dirt cheap. Nice ivory joint and ferrule, and I have antique linen to restore the wrap if I want to. The original bumper is gone.
I am currently looking for a couple old Brunswick bumpers from that era, before the brown KU bumpers. I believe they were called cue "silencers" or dampers" back then. I have a friend that likely has them...no rush anyway. This cue never had a bumper nor is there a screw hole for one (thankfully).
In addition, there can be tell-tale signs of work having been done. For example, if a stamped weight were sanded it loses the sharp edges. The end of the butt as well, with or without a cap can suffer a little rounding of edges with sanding. Things like that.
Having an eye for details is a must if you are going to make an accurate assessment.
You can see examples of such things in more modern cues. There have been early McDermott cues on the market that have replaced butt caps and re-stamped logos...done by McDermott. And they have incorrect bumpers as well because the originals are long unavailable, especially the ones in colors. If you know the original materials and the slight differences in logo stampings you can tell right away.
They are nice cues, but they are not original.
Was the ivory joint ever replaced? If so it was long ago. Was the ferrule ever replaced? If so, long ago. Very likely it would have been sent to Brunswick for such work anyway.
As it stands, the cue looks original and unmolested. The shaft is worn and "hour-glassed". It would need to be turned to be "proper". It is very likely I will have a new shaft made from old wood after locating an original pin. I would have the original turned to get rid of the hour-glass.
There is one nick that I can find in the butt, very minor. Anything else is extremely light.
The veneers on the bottom could be replaced by someone that knows what they are doing without molesting the cue. It's possible I would do that...but maybe not. We shall see.
I think it is a very good question that you ask. It is the kind of thing that collectors and experts will sometimes debate. Sometimes one will spot something another does not. Or sometimes one knows a certain type of cue better than another.
I am a collector, not an expert. If I were an expert I would be charging for my opinion. :wink: Part of the fun of it is the research and the learning curve.
.
That's absolutely untrue, they were saved and salvaged however possible. I've seen cues with tape, twine, glue, tar, lead, every cockamamie material to try and hold them together. People did not throw tools away unless they were utterly destroyed, they cost too much.
I have seen them with tape twine etc as well. I have seen them held together with nails.
And Brunswick would splice a shaft to correct a warp. Heck, the prices are in their catalogs a hundred years ago.
We have all seen those things.
But that's not what I am talking about.
The question was about "refinishing", repairs that would be hard to see.
Everything you are talking about is obvious.
Do you think this cue was broken in half and masterfully spliced back together the way we see cue makers do today? No, I know you don't think that.
Although we do find plenty of cues held together with bailing wire and duct tape, most of them are gone, tossed long ago.
It's easy to idealize the past but where are all the Model Ts?
I am not talking about the original owner tossing the cue ten years after he got it because of some damage. The cue has been around a very long time. I am talking about it getting tossed 50 years ago by some hippy that found it in grandpa's stuff and cracked it trying to play croquet with it.
.
That was a long post that didn't really respond to Ideologist.
I will correct what I said. If it was damaged it was:
1) masterfully repaired
2) cobbled back together
3) tossed
1) For this cue, if it was masterfully repaired is was a really long time ago and in this case is nothing that you can see.
Example: The MOP wedge is beautiful. That was noted by a couple people that posted. But on the bottom edge you can see the wear that matched the wear on the veneers. It has been on there a very long time. It is possible it was replaced. If so, it was a very long time ago and you can't really tell.
Example: If this shaft were sent back to Brunswick way back in the day, they would splice the end of it to repair the hourglass, or they would make a new shaft, whichever the owner wanted to pay for. The shaft has not been spliced. It could have been replaced, but you can't see that.
Example: The cue has no appreciable finish on it. If any finish was re-applied, it was a very long tome ago and you really can't tell.
2) It certainly wasn't cobbled back together with bailing wire, tape, and nails.
3) It certainly wan't thrown away.
.
I will correct what I said. If it was damaged it was:
1) masterfully repaired
2) cobbled back together
3) tossed
1) For this cue, if it was masterfully repaired is was a really long time ago and in this case is nothing that you can see.
Example: The MOP wedge is beautiful. That was noted by a couple people that posted. But on the bottom edge you can see the wear that matched the wear on the veneers. It has been on there a very long time. It is possible it was replaced. If so, it was a very long time ago and you can't really tell.
Example: If this shaft were sent back to Brunswick way back in the day, they would splice the end of it to repair the hourglass, or they would make a new shaft, whichever the owner wanted to pay for. The shaft has not been spliced. It could have been replaced, but you can't see that.
Example: The cue has no appreciable finish on it. If any finish was re-applied, it was a very long tome ago and you really can't tell.
2) It certainly wasn't cobbled back together with bailing wire, tape, and nails.
3) It certainly wan't thrown away.
.