13 mm?

[axlrose]

This is something I have wondered about for quite some time but have never really asked anyone, knowledgeable that is, about. Perhaps this is a uninformed question, so please humor me. How exactly did the industry standard ferrule/tip diameter establish itself at 13 mm? Why not 12 or 14? It seems as though I have read a number of posts from some very knowledgeable members about how markedly a sub-13 mm shaft will devalue a cue on the secondary market. I am aware Predator produces the 314 and Z shafts, both of which are standard at under 13 mm, the Z significantly so. Aside from them, I am unaware of any other maker, custom or production, that follows suit. Given that Predator shafts appear to be such a popular product, why is it alone in this respect?

Personally, I have used shafts with both hyper and hypo 13 mm ferrules and found them both to have their respective benefits. Coming from a snooker background, I was very accustomed to a 9 mm tip and what that could do to a cue ball, albeit a smaller one. However, I have also seen some very good snooker players using tips as large as 11 mm with noted success.

As a small note, to anyone who may find this question irrelevant, unnecessarily repetitive, or simply not worth reading, your consideration in advance for not stating these feelings in writing is appreciated. I do thank those with any constructive input to add.

Ryan

 

[TATE]

Ryan,

This has not been discussed, but here's my crazy theory. On the old cues, were talking from the 1920's on, they had a straight taper that ran from the butt to the tip. The butt was 1 1/2 inches and the tip was 1/2 inch, about 12.75mm. So I think that 1/2" was the benchmark for pool cues.

Then someone got the brilliant marketing idea that a fatter tip was a better tip, and they made their cues with a big fat 13.25 mm tip. To accommodate this big muffin on the end of the cue, they decided that a taper was too much for the poor pool player to bear, so they made the shaft straight for the last foot or so.

Whatever. Some of the shafts play well that way and some don't. Most of the better players I know play with less than a 13mm tip - if they ever bother to measure them. I like shafts with a taper so my tips are usually 12.5 mm and quickly escalate from there.

When it comes to getting the job done, I think the taper is what should determine the tip size, not vice-versa.

Chris

 

[Gerry]

Good question xl, and great response T!

I'm no engineer, but like Tate said, the taper is paramount in the playability of the shaft, BUT I also feel the size/weight of the cueball, and the mass of the cue have even more to do with why tip sizes around 13mm work.

I used to play a lot of snooker, but with a 12.75 pool cue. When I had the chance to use a standard snooker cue I was amazed at the difference! with the smaller cue the cueball danced, with my cue it seemed sluggish...

Gerry

 

[MrLucky]

McDermotts I series is also under 13mm

This is something I have wondered about for quite some time but have never really asked anyone, knowledgeable that is, about. Perhaps this is a uninformed question, so please humor me. How exactly did the industry standard ferrule/tip diameter establish itself at 13 mm? Why not 12 or 14? It seems as though I have read a number of posts from some very knowledgeable members about how markedly a sub-13 mm shaft will devalue a cue on the secondary market. I am aware Predator produces the 314 and Z shafts, both of which are standard at under 13 mm, the Z significantly so. Aside from them, I am unaware of any other maker, custom or production, that follows suit. Given that Predator shafts appear to be such a popular product, why is it alone in this respect?

Personally, I have used shafts with both hyper and hypo 13 mm ferrules and found them both to have their respective benefits. Coming from a snooker background, I was very accustomed to a 9 mm tip and what that could do to a cue ball, albeit a smaller one. However, I have also seen some very good snooker players using tips as large as 11 mm with noted success.

As a small note, to anyone who may find this question irrelevant, unnecessarily repetitive, or simply not worth reading, your consideration in advance for not stating these feelings in writing is appreciated. I do thank those with any constructive input to add.

Ryan

For a new or unskilled shooter 13mm is a better choice, as you gain more control. smoother stroke and english capabilities a smaller diameter will afford you more precise control.

 

[Rasta]

A smaller shaft diameter will have lower end mass, and therefore lower deflection, at least to a point. That is likely why Predator uses a smaller shaft diameter.

Good Rolls,
Rasta

 

[Snapshot9]

I don't know

it sure was handy Friday night when getting into a tip discussion with 2 other guys to whip my $3.95 calipers (good quality for the price - [A-]) out of my case, and measure my tip as compared to about 3 other cues. Instead of being left with unanswered questions, we were able to know exactly the tip sizes when comparing cues.

I know they will come in handy at any big tournaments, or if I get interested in trading or buying any other cue(s) too.

 

[axlrose]

interesting

I was just reviewing Rayjay's poll regarding the most popular tip sizes. I found it very interesting that, although cues apparently take such a hit on resale with less than 13 mm ferrules, only one-third of the respondents actually use 13 mm or larger. Given the results thus far, I would tend to think a 12.75, or thereabouts, shaft would be just as attractive, if not more, on the secondary market.

Having said, I have to admit I am less inclined to buy a cue with smaller shafts if I intend to resell it because I am concerened it will bring less money. I would be tempted to say I have been a bit brainwashed into believing this phenomenon, if I hadn't seen it bare out on numerous occasions.

Ryan

 

[Billy_Bob]

Note that if using a dime shaped tip, there is a limit to the shaft size at the tip. As it gets near 13 mm, the edges of the tip come down to the ferrule.

So if using a dime shaped tip (which Predators use and which will give you lower cue ball deflection), you will be able to reshape your tip more times if the shaft size at the tip is smaller.

 

[SCCues]

I was just reviewing Rayjay's poll regarding the most popular tip sizes. I found it very interesting that, although cues apparently take such a hit on resale with less than 13 mm ferrules, only one-third of the respondents actually use 13 mm or larger. Given the results thus far, I would tend to think a 12.75, or thereabouts, shaft would be just as attractive, if not more, on the secondary market.

Having said, I have to admit I am less inclined to buy a cue with smaller shafts if I intend to resell it because I am concerened it will bring less money. I would be tempted to say I have been a bit brainwashed into believing this phenomenon, if I hadn't seen it bare out on numerous occasions.

Ryan

I think cues in original condition are most likely to have 13mm shafts unless they were special order cues. I don't know the answer to how this size came to be the standard for most cue makers, but as far as I know it is the standard.

I think 12.5 to 12.75mm is the best playing size for a shaft, but to get a new cue that wasn't special ordered to that size you have to sand down the shafts to get them to the desired playing size. When a cue is put on the market to sell as a used cue if the shafts have been sanded/cut down to the smaller size I think prospective buyers would like the shafts to be original or 13mm so they can customize them to their own personal preference. If the shafts are cut down before hand then the prospective buyer has to settle for what someone else thought was the ideal size instead of what they might like so the cue isn't as valuable to them IMO. The butt of the cue may be perfect, but if the shafts have been cut down then the price of replacing shafts has to be factored into the selling price and a used cue with smaller shafts isn't as attractive to a lot of buyers so the cue will bring less money usually.

 

[gforces1911]

Concerns

I was just reviewing Rayjay's poll regarding the most popular tip sizes. I found it very interesting that, although cues apparently take such a hit on resale with less than 13 mm ferrules, only one-third of the respondents actually use 13 mm or larger. Given the results thus far, I would tend to think a 12.75, or thereabouts, shaft would be just as attractive, if not more, on the secondary market.

Having said, I have to admit I am less inclined to buy a cue with smaller shafts if I intend to resell it because I am concerened it will bring less money. I would be tempted to say I have been a bit brainwashed into believing this phenomenon, if I hadn't seen it bare out on numerous occasions.

Ryan

I usu. only buy 13mm because when they are smaller I cannot tell if they were ordered at that diameter or someone had them turned down. So, to me it seems the safest to buy at 13mm. I have ordered a cue with a smaller diameter (12.5) and I did not like it.

Seems to me that a lot of what I buy from a cuemaker has to do with the taper. Lots of focus on construction, but it seems the tapers are critical to the hit.

 

[DelaWho???]

Waiting for the DaVinci code, Knights Templar Friday the 13th explanation...The rest is just speculation...

 

[pdcue]

Ryan,

This has not been discussed, but here's my crazy theory. On the old cues, were talking from the 1920's on, they had a straight taper that ran from the butt to the tip. The butt was 1 1/2 inches and the tip was 1/2 inch, about 12.75mm. So I think that 1/2" was the benchmark for pool cues.

Then someone got the brilliant marketing idea that a fatter tip was a better tip, and they made their cues with a big fat 13.25 mm tip. To accommodate this big muffin on the end of the cue, they decided that a taper was too much for the poor pool player to bear, so they made the shaft straight for the last foot or so.

Whatever. Some of the shafts play well that way and some don't. Most of the better players I know play with less than a 13mm tip - if they ever bother to measure them. I like shafts with a taper so my tips are usually 12.5 mm and quickly escalate from there.

When it comes to getting the job done, I think the taper is what should determine the tip size, not vice-versa.

Chris

It sounds so good, but the 'pro taper' IIUC was developed for
Balkline players who bunted the balls about an inch at a time.
They squeezed the shaft very tightly to obtain the accuracy required
for that game.

Pro taper shafts carried over well to 14.1, so by the time of the Hoppe cues, it was thought that a good cue must have a pro taper shaft.

in their promo lit, BBC made much about the "spine" of the Hoppe
shafts, due in great part to the fact they were
"a full 12 1/2 mm"

Dale

 

[krbsailing]

I don't know the reason for the sizes But, IMO, I would agree with SC that for me buying a cue on the secondary market having a larger 13+mm shaft is more attractive as it lends itself more for me being able to modify it to fit my personal desires and, to be able to change/alter the shaft accordingly.

Personally, I like to shoot with a 12.75 tip and, if the tip is any smaller than this when I'm looking at buying a cue....then I don't really want the shaft and would really have to factor in buying a new shaft.

Aside, a smaller than 12.5mm shaft to me is limited to playing Snooker

 

[Mystick Cue Fan]

For a new or unskilled shooter 13mm is a better choice, as you gain more control. smoother stroke and english capabilities a smaller diameter will afford you more precise control.

I think it's quite the opposite. Why would an unskilled shooter desire control? I think as a beginner your fundamentals aren't there so you really can't put the english you want on the cueball all the time. Beg. tend to not stroke through the ball. A smaller tip would allow them to learn the lefts, rights, tops, bottoms.....etc, they would be able to draw a ball easier due to the smaller diameter and learn what and what not to put on the cueball. The better player you become the larger shaft diameter you desire for control. I've always seen players go from small to big shafts. Never the other way around. But maybe it's a local thing......

 

[krbsailing]

I think it's quite the opposite. Why would an unskilled shooter desire control? I think as a beginner your fundamentals aren't there so you really can't put the english you want on the cueball all the time. Beg. tend to not stroke through the ball. A smaller tip would allow them to learn the lefts, rights, tops, bottoms.....etc, they would be able to draw a ball easier due to the smaller diameter and learn what and what not to put on the cueball. The better player you become the larger shaft diameter you desire for control. I've always seen players go from small to big shafts. Never the other way around. But maybe it's a local thing......

I think (IMO) the exact opposite?!?

 

[Mystick Cue Fan]

I think (IMO) the exact opposite?!?

Save that B.S.......

 

[krbsailing]

Most folks I know have a hell of a time controlling spin/english on a cue ball.....that's even if they know what theyr'e trying to accomplish!

My feeling is that a larger dia 13+mm tip allows them more contact area and therefore, more of an area to "control" the cue ball !? Just my 1.5cents

 

[Mystick Cue Fan]

Most folks I know have a hell of a time controlling spin/english on a cue ball.....that's even if they know what theyr'e trying to accomplish!

My feeling is that a larger dia 13+mm tip allows them more contact area and therefore, more of an area to "control" the cue ball !? Just my 1.5cents

Why would a beginner need a ton of control of the cueball when he has trouble pocketing balls? "control" is what you need when you start playing better....

just my 2 pesos

Tony

 

[krbsailing]

Well, my (IMO) is that the larger tip gives the player a better feel/touch/control of the cue ball!? I've been wrong before but, my gut feeling is that a smaller (12mm) tip is more times than not for the novice offer more miscues

 

[Mystick Cue Fan]

Well, my (IMO) is that the larger tip gives the player a better feel/touch/control of the cue ball!? I've been wrong before but, my gut feeling is that a smaller (12mm) tip is more times than not for the novice offer more miscues

I'm not saying you're wrong. You may as well be 100% correct. Maybe it's just the way I came up. I use a 13mm shaft now. And before I couldn't even use anything more than 12.5mm. Oh well. I'm probably wrong.

Tony