14.1 not fair both players should be given a chance to run balls

My definition of fair.

The first string quarterback getting treated differently then the second string quarterback, because he deserves it.

Look back over the last three years in the World 14.1 and tell me how many matches we won by the breaker having only one shot, the opening break. If you are getting ran out on after the break, practice your break.

What percentage of pool players even have a 5% chance of running a 200 and out?

If you don't like the rules, don't play the game. What I have found is people who like alternating break, and games that are equal are people who can not run or control tables themselves. They don't want to change rules to make the game better, they want to change the rules to make up for their lack of ability.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
It is an unusual game in the fact that you lose the lag and break safe as everyone does. Then your opponent finds a wired combo in the pack and runs 150 and out and you lose.

In all other sports I can think of, snooker, bowling, darts. tennis etc
Both players get a serve or chance or multiple chances in the match.
Winner breaks 9 ball or the way 14.1 is played, it is not so, but if it was played on much tighter pockets then it wouldn't matter, as no one would probably run 150 and out.

Maybe if someone runs 150 and out, then they should have to break the next game and give the opponent one chance to match the feat.
 
How about just accept the fact that you played a bad shot and your opponent played one heck of a game.
The ability to control the table completely and leave your opponent sitting there helpless is what sets pool apart from other sports, and the most legendary moments in pool are born from that. You want fair, go play in the local bar league. End of story.
 
Bob Jewett said:
What they should do is kind of explained here:
...so, hugs to Naji. (The image above, which you are supposed to click on, is probably copyright by someone or something, but I thought it was too awesome not to include. I hope someone or something will forgive me. The image also reminds me of how far these computer games have come since I played Adventure with my co-workers (or cow-orkers (very inside joke)) in the 1970s on a text-only terminal.)

A small nit.... There are posters here who do have some influence over the rules. So far as I know, none of them sees any usefulness in the proposal.

There is another thread going on right now about Bowlliards (solo pool played like straight pool and scored like bowling) that may satisfy those overly bent on "fairness."

Bob Jewett
Chief Editor, 2008 World Standardized Rules
Click to expand...

Sorry Bob, my english is not that good, i did not get it! or i did!!

Look guys, i watched all pros practice 14.1 past week, there was no one practicing lag or break for that matter, or safety, i did see one practicing coin toss!! they put a break ball and have at it.
Straight pool is about how many balls you can run period end of sentence, you want safety game go play one pocket. I see no reason why not place a ball in middle of table with CB behind the line, each player attempt to run, if 1st player miss, 2nd player continue and regular 14.1 then, if 1st player ran 100, or 150 and out should be allowed to continue the run until miss (for a high run prize), 2nd player should attempt it too, if both ran 100 or 150 and out, repeat. Very simple

Unless 14.1 rules change i am not buying any stream to watch Efren or SVB sit on the side line just racking balls (for who ....or better leave opponents name out so not to get in trouble) & taking naps, you can forget it! what a waste! Imagine Earl Strickland get shutout oh boy! you will never hear the end of it, and how many hours he practice and rules, and........
 
Last edited:
This is a stupid discussion! 14.1 is not like 9 ball where luck plays a big part and in short races (up to 7) the least skilled player can easily win.
In 14.1 the best player always wins! The margin for error is much lower and you get rewarded not just for your play, but for how strong your mental game is. In a way 14.1 is very much like snooker.
 
Kim Bye said:
This is a stupid discussion! 14.1 is not like 9 ball where luck plays a big part and in short races (up to 7) the least skilled player can easily win.
In 14.1 the best player always wins! The margin for error is much lower and you get rewarded not just for your play, but for how strong your mental game is. In a way 14.1 is very much like snooker.
Click to expand...


14.1 is not like 9 ball where luck plays a big part

Trying to get the luck part of it out (the 1st few shots in the game are useless and opens the door for luck! allowing 2nd player opportunity to say "hay your 150 and out wont scare me, watch me do it!!!!"

Plus what in the hill you comparing snooker to 14.1 1st, the difficulty level in snooker is 10000000000000000 times that of 14.1 . One day walked in the pool room, played a guy wanted to shoot 14.1, i ran 50 points cold before i even practice!! the game is very very easy to those that shoot good pool! so many options and selections!
 
naji said:
Sorry Bob, my english is not that good, i did not get it! or i did!!

Look guys, i watched all pros practice 14.1 past week, there was no one practicing lag or break for that matter, or safety, i did see one practicing coin toss!! they put a break ball and have at it.
Straight pool is about how many balls you can run period end of sentence, you want safety game go play one pocket. I see no reason why not place a ball in middle of table with CB behind the line, each player attempt to run, if 1st player miss, 2nd player continue and regular 14.1 then, if 1st player ran 100, or 150 and out should be allowed to continue the run until miss (for a high run prize), 2nd player should attempt it too, if both ran 100 or 150 and out, repeat. Very simple

Unless 14.1 rules change i am not buying any stream to watch Efren or SVB sit on the side line just racking balls (for who ....or better leave opponents name out so not to get in trouble) & taking naps, you can forget it! what a waste! Imagine Earl Strickland get shutout oh boy! you will never hear the end of it, and how many hours he practice and rules, and........
Click to expand...

This is where you are (still) wrong. The goal of 14.1 is to pocket 150 balls before the other guy does.

If you want high-run contests go to SBE and DCC.
 
naji said:
14.1 is not like 9 ball where luck plays a big part

Trying to get the luck part of it out (the 1st few shots in the game are useless and opens the door for luck! allowing 2nd player opportunity to say "hay your 150 and out wont scare me, watch me do it!!!!"

Plus what in the hill you comparing snooker to 14.1 1st, the difficulty level in snooker is 10000000000000000 times that of 14.1 . One day walked in the pool room, played a guy wanted to shoot 14.1, i ran 50 points cold before i even practice!! the game is very very easy to those that shoot good pool! so many options and selections!
Click to expand...

And here's where you royally f'up, naji. Those folks who were at the 14.1 championship, other than Evgeny Stalev (who's just a freak), all practiced 14.1. They will be the FIRST to tell you that 14.1 is not easy.

I can tell you don't play 14.1 -- at *all* -- because of the "very very easy... so many options and selections" comment. You're a 9-ball player, for sure.

You know what, naji? I (and a few others) help run the 14.1 Challenge at the Super Billiards Expo every year -- sans last year, because we didn't have one for a couple reasons not to be mentioned here. We see it *all the time* where a really good 9-baller (including a few pros whom we won't mention here) struggle with the game -- even with a hand-placed break ball and cue ball, as is the format with a 14.1 challenge. I even had a pro *ask me* what break ball I would recommend, and in the spirit of being a good host and wanting to see everyone run as many as they can, I answered his question and gave him some really good pointers. He couldn't get out of the first rack the first time; the second time, he got out of the first rack, but had chosen a really poor break ball, and had to do cue ball heroics to try and get into the rack (he got glued to it). The third time, he ran a couple racks, but it was obvious he was struggling the whole way. He walked away, shaking his head, saying he now has a newfound respect for the game. Seriously.

You, obviously (via your comments), have never played the game before. It's easy when sitting behind a keyboard to say, "you mean I can shoot any ball into any pocket?!? OMG, that's easy!" And this is where you reveal how clueless you are.

Play the game. In fact, use your choice of breakshot, and I *challenge you* to run 50 balls. No, let's make that 3 racks -- 42 balls. Most amateurs who play the game consider a 42-ball run to be a milestone, so let's see one from you, since you think this game is "so easy." Record it on video -- textual claims that you did it don't count.

How about it?

-Sean <-- legitimately plays both snooker and 14.1, and would NEVER make the claim that snooker is "10000000000000000 times" that of 14.1
 
Last edited:
I think the possibility of a "shut out" is part of the intensity of tournament pool at the highest level. The reason that the billiard players provide for the player who did not break to have a chance to make the break shot is that the break shot in billiards is an offensive, not a defensive, shot, and it is a shot which the players can practise until they make it very routinely and simultaneously obtain a position to begin a run. That is certainly not true of the break in straight pool.
 
sfleinen said:
And here's where you royally f'up, naji. Those folks who were at the 14.1 championship, other than Evgeny Stalev (who's just a freak), all practiced 14.1. They will be the FIRST to tell you that 14.1 is not easy.

I can tell you don't play 14.1 -- at *all* -- because of the "very very easy... so many options and selections" comment. You're a 9-ball player, for sure.

You know what, naji? I (and a few others) help run the 14.1 Challenge at the Super Billiards Expo every year -- sans last year, because we didn't have one for a couple reasons not to be mentioned here. We see it *all the time* where a really good 9-baller (including a few pros whom we won't mention here) struggle with the game -- even with a hand-placed break ball and cue ball, as is the format with a 14.1 challenge. I even had a pro *ask me* what break ball I would recommend, and in the spirit of being a good host and wanting to see everyone run as many as they can, I answered his question and gave him some really good pointers. He couldn't get out of the first rack the first time; the second time, he got out of the first rack, but had chosen a really poor break ball, and had to do cue ball heroics to try and get into the rack (he got glued to it). The third time, he ran a couple racks, but it was obvious he was struggling the whole way. He walked away, shaking his head, saying he now has a newfound respect for the game. Seriously.

You, obviously (via your comments), have never played the game before. It's easy when sitting behind a keyboard to say, "you mean I can shoot any ball into any pocket?!? OMG, that's easy!" And this is where you reveal how clueless you are.

Play the game. In fact, use your choice of breakshot, and I *challenge you* to run 50 balls. No, let's make that 3 racks -- 42 balls. Most amateurs who play the game consider a 42-ball run to be a milestone, so let's see one from you, since you think this game is "so easy." Record it on video -- textual claims that you did it don't count.

How about it?

-Sean <-- legitimately plays both snooker and 14.1, and would NEVER make the claim that snooker is "10000000000000000 times" that of 14.1
Click to expand...

I did not say if a guy new to 14.1 will excel in it, i said it is easy because you play for multiple ball position with 99% of shots less than 3 diamonds distance just like 8 ball, much easier than rotation games, sure you need experience in any game of pool, a pro in 9 ball is not going to do good at first, but in no time they will be killers once they know how to break balls!
 
naji said:
I did not say if a guy new to 14.1 will excel in it, i said it is easy because you play for multiple ball position with 99% of shots less than 3 diamonds distance just like 8 ball, much easier than rotation games, sure you need experience in any game of pool, a pro in 9 ball is not going to do good at first, but in no time they will be killers once they know how to break balls!
Click to expand...

And again, this is where you are royally messing up with this "much easier than rotation games" thing. I'm not talking new guys, either. Did you even read my post? I mentioned even the pros who never play 14.1 have problems with it -- and I saw this with my own eyes as a 14.1 Challenge booth host. Did you even see my offer (my challenge) to you to show us that you can run three racks? In order to have any effect at a debate, you *should* have an educated stance, and actually playing the game would give you an insight of how NOT "so easy" it is. The mere fact that you *have* choices in shots is what makes it not easy. There are a couple right ways, and many, many wrong ways to take the balls off the table.

You are tilting at windmills. Do you have nothing to do but to argue about changing rules to a game on a forum, a futile effort at best?

-Sean
 
peppersauce said:
naji. What's your high run? Just curious. I can't imagine anyone who has actually put the time and effort into 14.1 that it takes to become reasonably proficient making such an uneducated statement. You're talking about the best players in the world here. If they aren't complaining, and never have, who are you to say otherwise? The only real way to give both players a chance to run would be to extend the match to 500 or so and if the weaker player didn't like the 150 point match they damn sure aren't going to like a 500 point match, lol.

But that's not even the point. If you don't make a mistake, you can't lose. You want to punish someone for playing a perfect match? That's a joke.

I think your opinion on this would be totally different if you had put in the work yourself and were capable of running 150 and out on someone.

And you keep referencing alternate break....I hate alternate break. I personally feel like any change to rules that favors the weaker player in professional play in ANY sport is a mistake. The goal is to be the best, not win on a handicap. JMO.
Click to expand...


The only real way to give both players a chance to run would be to extend the match to 500 or so and if the weaker player didn't like the 150 point match they damn sure aren't going to like a 500 point match, lol.


Ok now we are getting closer, i will meet half way and go for 300 to 500 points matches. The point is to give both players a chance to run.

The goal is to be the best ok then, step up, and stop making excuses for not winning because (oh, i scratched, he won the lag, had bad break, got lucky combo), set a break shot and go that will show the real skill, and let both do it, even with a 2nd chance for each! BE A MAN!
 
Tobermory said:
I think the possibility of a "shut out" is part of the intensity of tournament pool at the highest level. The reason that the billiard players provide for the player who did not break to have a chance to make the break shot is that the break shot in billiards is an offensive, not a defensive, shot, and it is a shot which the players can practise until they make it very routinely and simultaneously obtain a position to begin a run. That is certainly not true of the break in straight pool.
Click to expand...

Bingo -- nice post. Naji makes the observation that "he never saw any pros practicing the break" -- but I'm not sure what he was watching. They certainly didn't put any of the practice tables on the stream at any time.

And, on the final day (I was there, with Stu Mattana, Charlie Eames, Jonni Fulcher, etc.), the only ones practicing were Shane and Max on the stream table, and Darren on a back table that was well away from the camera view. Darren was *indeed* practicing his break, with Geoff Conway racking for him. Over and over and over, Darren practiced his match-opening safety break. And other dedicated pros do the same, if not regularly, then surely a LOT before a match. I can't tell you how many times I've caught John Schmidt, or Mike Davis, or Shaun Wilkie, or Max Eberle, or...etc. practicing the match-opening safety break at least before a match. It's one of the most important (if not THE important) shot in a 14.1 match. It will determine if you will be the one sitting down, or shooting. It will be the one that will determine if you're the recipient of watching your opponent place a 150-and-out on you.

-Sean
 
looks like you're pretty much on your own here Mr Naji, .................. 14.1 is just like the hokey kokey, thats what its all about.............
 
sfleinen said:
Bingo -- nice post. Naji makes the observation that "he never saw any pros practicing the break" -- but I'm not sure what he was watching. They certainly didn't put any of the practice tables on the stream at any time.

And, on the final day (I was there, with Stu Mattana, Charlie Eames, Jonni Fulcher, etc.), the only ones practicing were Shane and Max on the stream table, and Darren on a back table that was well away from the camera view. Darren was *indeed* practicing his break, with Geoff Conway racking for him. Over and over and over, Darren practiced his match-opening safety break. And other dedicated pros do the same, if not regularly, then surely a LOT before a match. I can't tell you how many times I've caught John Schmidt, or Mike Davis, or Shaun Wilkie, or Max Eberle, or...etc. practicing the match-opening safety break at least before a match. It's one of the most important (if not THE important) shot in a 14.1 match. It will determine if you will be the one sitting down, or shooting. It will be the one that will determine if you're the recipient of watching your opponent place a 150-and-out on you.

-Sean
Click to expand...

I was there one day and watched Darren, Schmidt, Davis, earl, Mika, SVB, Thorten and others, none that i saw that day have shot a break shot, they were alternating racks set a break ball and practice.

Sean common, a player shoots three hours running balls, and you want to tell me the 1st shot is critical! if both pros playing, both are capable of running 150 and out, why give the advantage to either of them this way!
 
I think it's safe to say the horse is dead.

Naji wants high-run contests. Everyone else wants 14.1 tournaments.
 
sheffield6 said:
looks like you're pretty much on your own here Mr Naji, .................. 14.1 is just like the hokey kokey, thats what its all about.............
Click to expand...

I hear you! i got my argument they got theirs, it is free forum!

Again, i am not buying a stream where my horse just racks balls, hell i excel in racking balls! a friend of mine called me racker for a year back in the days!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top