14.1 Run Question

[dogginda9]

That's a tough question Steve. I got stuck to the stack once and froze between 2 balls before on 99 and was convinced that I was cursed. But I felt that if it was meant to be, it would happen eventually. I just feel that I would play it the right way, play for the longer run, and accept the outcome no matter what. My answer might be different if I were at 149 or 199 maybe. I'll never get to find out, but it sure would make for some nice converesations in my head.

 

[dmgwalsh]

For those who play 14.1, I have a question. We each have that “number” in our heads, a number which we know we might be capable of running, but that for whatever reason has eluded us throughout our playing career. For some, it might be 50. Others 100, 200, or higher.

So here’s the question. You are running balls, and you get to a situation where you have n-1 balls. If your goal is 50, you are at 49. There are only two open balls. One is a duck, but you can’t break the rack from it. AND getting position on the other break ball after making the hanger will be, for the purposes of this question, impossible. You have a shot at the break ball, but it’s super-tough. You estimate that your make percentage on it would be between 40% and 50%.

So… what do each of you do? Do you take the hanger and lock in the goal? For the rest of your life, no one will ever be able to take this number from you. But… do you want to end your career never knowing what you might have achieved that glorious day? Or do you go for the break shot in an effort to continue the run? Metaphorically, will you be able to live with yourself having ran, say, 199 and missing a risky shot?

(For the purposes of this question, assume there is a very reasonable chance you will never again hit this number, and that you know this during the run. Also assume this is in practice and your choice will not affect the outcome of a match.)

Thanks! I look forward to the responses.

My immediate goal is 50. I've hit 46 twice in the last 4 or 5 months. The second time, I believe I could have hit 50 easy if I wanted to cinch 50, but the table needed to be played a certain way to go further. I took a harder shot than I needed and missed my shapes, tried a combo and that was that.
I voted to cinch the 50th just to get it over with.

By the way, I don't know how someone who was running up to a certain number could be reasonably certain that he would never get there again. This part of your hypothetical doesn't seem to comport with my sense of reality in playing pool. If you are there right now, who is to say you won't be there again on your next turn? I would cinch the 50 and start going for another high.

 

[bigmanpool]

Weather you go for the low percentage shot or not for me will depend on a few things 1) am i competing 2) am i gambleing 3) were am i in the match 4) am i feeling confadent . Theres a flow of energy & thoughts when your at the table. Some times when you think about were you are in the run or match thats when you make the worng move. You could be at a run of 199 trying to get to 200 if you realise you at 199 your dead in the water . For me anyway . This is a good topic Steve.

 

[Josh Palmer]

How about running 84 in the middle of a one-pocket tournament, getting a perfect break shot- and being so in the zone that I didn't hear a match being called on that table..... One of the players comes over and bumps the break ball into the corner with his cue while he walks over to the table...??? I was ticked until I realized that they were getting ready to play a match on it.. lol Oh well.. I need to get back to playing straight pool again.

 

[Gerry]

GREAT thread!

If I'm playing a match....the correct shot % is most times obvious, regardless of the run length, So I'm playingy the odds to win.

At practice...I'm going for the highest run possible...knowing if I blow the break out, I'm ok knowing the hanger was there, and I'd have gotten the (1) more needed to make the run.

Last week I was sitting at 72 with 8 balls on the table, I had 3 makeable balls. I chose to pocket an easy shot bumping out a key ball towards the side pocket. The ball ended up sitting on the point of the side pocket unmakeable. i had to console myself with the thought that it was the highest percentage move to maybe hit the century. The "I TOLD YOU SO" thing hit me for a moment, then I remembered my teacher saying......consider all the options....go with your gut, and live by it, learn by it.....make it work for you during the next run.....words I've tried to live by....though not always easy!

Gerry

 

[bigmanpool]

Hey Gerry !
Your teather sounds very Wise. I like that ! I am going to add that to my thought process . And it came at a good time because i had a match last night that i would like to forget . I could have used that wisdom . Thanks !

 

[Gerry]

Hey Gerry !
Your teacher sounds very Wise. I like that ! I am going to add that to my thought process . And it came at a good time because i had a match last night that i would like to forget . I could have used that wisdom . Thanks !

No problem....glad to help. Everything he taught me would be worthless if I didn't pass it on right?!

Gerry

 

[The Piper]

In a way, this sentiment cuts to the heart of the original question, doesn't it? They're both important to me, and I make no excuses for that.

Status in the pool world is a nice thing to some degree. I think most of us would like to be thought of as an X-ball runner (any accurate rebuttals aside that running exactly X once does not make someone an X-ball runner ).

I would agree with that. My highest straight pool run is 76. I did take the risky shot back at 29 just to make it to 30 and it worked out. I couldn't run 76 again to save my life. So I can't really say that I am a 76 ball runner. I have gotten so used to 9-ball and 8-ball, that I just get back the delicate touch and patience of 14.1. Plus 14.1 on an unlevel bumpy table with a missing rail bolt WILL most certainly try you're patience. So I don't do it. Not until I can find a decent pool hall in central Massachusetts.

 

[The Piper]

I say shoot the break ball, but call the hanger. If they spread just right, something is bound to run into the hanger, then what's the problem?

 

[The Piper]

WOOHOO I HIT A 100 POSTS!!! I change my answer, go for the hanger it does feel better!

 

[Steve Lipsky]

I would shoot the break shot and take my chances. If you just have a hanger there for the one last point to make a certain number then you really already have a mental victory knowing that you could make that easy ball to reach your goal.

Hi Shane. Good post. I am curious - would you feel the same if you were at 199, had a wide-open table, and your 200th ball skidded on you? Assume it was a total hanger, and you are positive it would have been pocketed if not for the skid.

If you never got that far again, would you consider yourself to have ever run two hundred balls?

What about if someone were to bump you just as you were shooting number 200, causing you to miss and disrupt the layout?

I guess the gist of what I am asking is, is there some form of closure we need (the act of actually pocketing that final ball) to make the victory true? If I were at my goal ball, and one of the above two things happened causing me to miss it, I would not be able to look at it as maturely as you are saying. I'm fairly certain I'd have to start playing in traffic.

- Steve

 

[Steve Lipsky]

LOL!!! This reminds me of the time I met a guy in college who was practicing some straight pool. He had a very smooth stroke, and looked like he could run a hundred balls if everything went well. I asked him what his high run was.

"Ninety f*ckin' nine," he said with a not too thrilled voice.

Fred <~~~ thinks he would have like to see the hanger...

LOL @ "ninety ****ing nine"... isn't it so cruel that, within the constructs of this beautiful game, any run that starts from a new rack will have to make the break ball AND get another shot at the beginning of the eighth rack to get to 100?

When I see you in Vegas you can do the imitation for me

- Steve <--- enjoys blasting that eighth rack in lame effort to make two balls on the break.

 

[pool]

Decisions...

Seems to me that if the break-ball shot is a super tough one, then it is a no-brainer to take the duck and then play a safety off the last open ball. I would rather come up short intentionally by playing smart than blowing a chance by playing stupid.

 

[Steve Lipsky]

I guess I should stress that this hypothetical is entirely in practice. There are no match considerations.

Additionally, the tough break shot is nothing outlandish - it's just a tough shot. Maybe you got a much bigger angle on it than you would have hoped, but it's not like you're considering playing a double bank just to keep the run going. In other words, playing it won't hurt the integrity of the run. It's a perfectly legitimate shot.

- Steve

 

[hobokenapa]

If I were at my goal ball ....

Surely once you meet the 200 goal, a new goal is set. It's not like you'll hang up you cue having achieved pool nirvana. I'm sure when you were a wee lad, your goal was 30 then 50, then 75 then 100, then 150, now 200, and soon to be 300.

I have a friend who quit his job as a lawyer to get into real estate. He just wanted to make a million bucks. Two years later, he has three million. I asked him what drives him on now. He said "I want to make 10 million". It is never ending. In fact, he has a friend that has been doing the same thing for over eight years and is worth 100 million, has just opened his second casino and still wants more.

It is human nature to always strive for what is just out of reach.

Tim <-- still hasn't run 50, and was on the receiving end of a 54 that Steve did last night without even thinking

 

[Williebetmore]

I guess I should stress that this hypothetical is entirely in practice. There are no match considerations.

Additionally, the tough break shot is nothing outlandish - it's just a tough shot. Maybe you got a much bigger angle on it than you would have hoped, but it's not like you're considering playing a double bank just to keep the run going. In other words, playing it won't hurt the integrity of the run. It's a perfectly legitimate shot.

- Steve

Steve, I've avoided weighing in (not sure a feeble 45 ball runner has much to add to these hypothetical considerations); but I will tell you that if there is ANY chance of continuing the run I will ALWAYS go for the shot (in practice).

As long as you are calling ball and pocket then there is no loss of "integrity". If you've ever seen Pat Fleming play 14.1 you know there is NO SUCH THING as avoiding a break shot because of too much angle.

I was helping a friend warm up for the IPT by playing some straight pool. When he got a little past straight on standard break shot; he just slammed the object ball off the stack and into the corner, whitey going off the object ball, to the side rail, and back into the stack at warp speed - no 2 balls touching on the resulting table. I thought it was pretty incredible, until he did it AGAIN 2 racks later. I don't know if this run had "integrity", but he called the shots and got to keep shooting.

Just last week I had run 44 balls, and after the break shot had an entirely open table 12 or 13 balls left. I could have run these balls fairly easily; but had a "trouble ball" just past the side pocket on the rail (no balls nearby to move it with easily). As I had a fairly decent shallow angle on the trouble ball, I shot it right then; missing it. It was the correct shot, but I missed a great chance to break 50.

I don't feel bad about it at all. I just remember the story Mike Sigel told about playing with Irving Crane, when Mike was a teenager. In such a situation, Irving evidently recommended ALWAYS shooting the correct professional shot, even if your shooting skills are not yet professional level - otherwise, how will you ever learn the proper way unless you try it at every opportunity.

 

[Steve Lipsky]

Steve, I've avoided weighing in (not sure a feeble 45 ball runner has much to add to these hypothetical considerations); but I will tell you that if there is ANY chance of continuing the run I will ALWAYS go for the shot (in practice).

As long as you are calling ball and pocket then there is no loss of "integrity". If you've ever seen Pat Fleming play 14.1 you know there is NO SUCH THING as avoiding a break shot because of too much angle.

I like them big angle shots too and will almost never turn them down. They sure do spread the rack nicely! I hear Fleming was simply incredible with them.

I was helping a friend warm up for the IPT by playing some straight pool. When he got a little past straight on standard break shot; he just slammed the object ball off the stack and into the corner, whitey going off the object ball, to the side rail, and back into the stack at warp speed - no 2 balls touching on the resulting table. I thought it was pretty incredible, until he did it AGAIN 2 racks later. I don't know if this run had "integrity", but he called the shots and got to keep shooting.

Hmmm, in my book, I'd have to say that the run is effectively over as soon as he tries something like that. It's a shot that would never be played in top-flight combination, and he only played it in an effort to continue the run. I'm all for playing a nice aggressive game, even banking the occasional ball when defense is just out of the question. But shooting the break ball off the stack...

Just last week I had run 44 balls, and after the break shot had an entirely open table 12 or 13 balls left. I could have run these balls fairly easily; but had a "trouble ball" just past the side pocket on the rail (no balls nearby to move it with easily). As I had a fairly decent shallow angle on the trouble ball, I shot it right then; missing it. It was the correct shot, but I missed a great chance to break 50.

Sorry to hear that! It's always nice to make a new high run, but it sounds like you've got a great attitude about it. I'm sure you'll surpass your goals sooner than you expect...

- Steve

 

[Steve Lipsky]

Surely once you meet the 200 goal, a new goal is set. It's not like you'll hang up you cue having achieved pool nirvana. I'm sure when you were a wee lad, your goal was 30 then 50, then 75 then 100, then 150, now 200, and soon to be 300.

I have a friend who quit his job as a lawyer to get into real estate. He just wanted to make a million bucks. Two years later, he has three million. I asked him what drives him on now. He said "I want to make 10 million". It is never ending. In fact, he has a friend that has been doing the same thing for over eight years and is worth 100 million, has just opened his second casino and still wants more.

It is human nature to always strive for what is just out of reach.

Tim <-- still hasn't run 50, and was on the receiving end of a 54 that Steve did last night without even thinking

Not me.... once I hit my number, I'm throwing my cue into the fireplace lol.

Don't worry, Tim... you'll get there VERY soon. You played a nice game last night, and I look forward to the next one .

 

[curly]

For some reason I've been thinking about this question a lot lately... have no idea why.

I voted in the poll that I would shoot the hanger. Hitting 200 has been too important a goal for me for so long. I am not sure why it has always eluded me, but it has, and it's more humbling than I care to share.

There are some specific reasons why I think I might shoot the hanger, not the least of which is I don't see too much difference between telling someone my high run is 232 and telling someone it's 200. But it feels there's a difference between 232 and 199. If I knew that making the break shot would guarantee me another 80, then yes, I'd like to believe I would definitely go for it.

I think if I brought the make percentage of the tough shot up to 70%, I go for it. 45% is a tough shot, especially considering you are obviously in your zone at that point and would likely have a higher than normal level of confidence.

All this said, I really can't say with certainty I know what I would do if the circumstance ever came up.

- Steve

I'm surprised to hear that you'd go for the hanger! You are such a great player and to even think of a 200 ball run is monumental anyways. FWIW, I voted to go for the breakshot.

My thought is that to be in a situation where achieving a high run goal is a possiblility, one must be playing very well and in a "zone" at that point. I know that when I'm playing well (which isn't too often lately..lol) I can have a 50% or less shot normally but I know that I will make that shot. I play straight and 9-ball and I found that the situation I mention occurrs alot in 9-ball more than straight. I also find the opposite true when I am struggling...meaning a normally 90% shot appears difficult and becomes a 10% shot. I recall seeing Rempe miss an easy 9-ball in the side pocket in Chicago for the Worlds 14.1 championship and Joe Balsis ran out on him!

It was good that you thought of posting this. I play in a league where most of the players are "duck shooters" with little regard for pattern play. I call it "target shooting" and they are not really progressing so that their position play along with good pattern selection isn't part of the game which I feel is so important.

Curly

 

[Rod]

Steve, Maybe I'll answer your question with a short story. After playing 14-1 for a short while I set a goal of running 50 balls when I went to the room. At first I had some problems but I always run my 50, usually within three tries.

One night I went down, no matter what I did it ended up smelling like doo doo. I really don't remember how many tries but (about three hours) I was determined to run the 50. Finally I was on 49, my last shot wasn't a hanger but not very difficult. At that time I would have loved a hanger anything to get it over. I called it quits after that ball. Rarely did I try to run any more anyway, it was a warm up. Then I'd go on to play 9 ball maybe 14-1 if a good game come up or Golf.

But to answer your question, I'd go for the shot. I've never run 200 and at this point I doubt I ever will. However given the opportunity, even if I missed at 199 I really don't think people would see me as the guy that never got there. I might be a ball short but I could live with that.

Rod